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Post by Cornflake on Nov 3, 2023 8:31:59 GMT -5
What a ******* mess.
The Israelis and Palestinians are going to have to learn to live with each other. At the moment, though, both sides are run by extremists who see no need to compromise. They're making it harder and harder for reasonable people to find a workable solution. And the death toll keeps mounting.
Pray for the people on both sides who are paying the price.
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Israel
Nov 3, 2023 9:27:34 GMT -5
Post by brucemacneill on Nov 3, 2023 9:27:34 GMT -5
Still waiting for someone to tell me what atrocities Israel did to make y'all think October 7th was reasonable. When I was growing up the question was how the German people justified the holocaust, as in "How could that happen"? Well, look around today. You're doing it again, Nazi democrats.
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Post by Cornflake on Nov 3, 2023 9:45:06 GMT -5
"Still waiting for someone to tell me what atrocities Israel did to make y'all think October 7th was reasonable."
Bruce, I don't recall anyone here expressing the view that October 7th was reasonable.
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Israel
Nov 3, 2023 11:32:18 GMT -5
Post by brucemacneill on Nov 3, 2023 11:32:18 GMT -5
"Still waiting for someone to tell me what atrocities Israel did to make y'all think October 7th was reasonable." Bruce, I don't recall anyone here expressing the view that October 7th was reasonable. Not paying attention isn't an excuse.
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Post by howard lee on Nov 3, 2023 11:45:50 GMT -5
Still waiting for someone to tell me what atrocities Israel did to make y'all think October 7th was reasonable. When I was growing up the question was how the German people justified the holocaust, as in "How could that happen"? Well, look around today. You're doing it again, Nazi democrats.
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Israel
Nov 3, 2023 11:53:28 GMT -5
Post by John B on Nov 3, 2023 11:53:28 GMT -5
"Still waiting for someone to tell me what atrocities Israel did to make y'all think October 7th was reasonable." Bruce, I don't recall anyone here expressing the view that October 7th was reasonable. Not paying attention isn't an excuse. Please provide a link, or a quote. Your say-so is not an accurate indicator of what is true and what is not.
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Israel
Nov 3, 2023 12:49:56 GMT -5
Post by brucemacneill on Nov 3, 2023 12:49:56 GMT -5
Not paying attention isn't an excuse. Please provide a link, or a quote. Your say-so is not an accurate indicator of what is true and what is not. Guess you don't get news either. Israel hasn't done anything I know of to warrant burning babies and families by the Iranian terrorists but somehow the democrats apparently don't recognize pure evil when it shows itself.
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Israel
Nov 3, 2023 13:21:19 GMT -5
Post by John B on Nov 3, 2023 13:21:19 GMT -5
Please provide a link, or a quote. Your say-so is not an accurate indicator of what is true and what is not. Guess you don't get news either. Israel hasn't done anything I know of to warrant burning babies and families by the Iranian terrorists but somehow the democrats apparently don't recognize pure evil when it shows itself. Bruce, you make no sense. You said, "Still waiting for someone to tell me what atrocities Israel did to make y'all think October 7th was reasonable." Cornflake said, "Bruce, I don't recall anyone here expressing the view that October 7th was reasonable." You said, "Not paying attention isn't an excuse." So who said October 7th was reasonable, Bruce? No one here. Just because you would like things does not make them so, and if you say otherwise you are just plain wrong. And you are wrong.
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Israel
Nov 3, 2023 13:35:53 GMT -5
Post by Russell Letson on Nov 3, 2023 13:35:53 GMT -5
Flake beat me to it, but I just spent a half hour I'll never get back preparing this, so here goes:
The claim in question is not whether the actions of Hamas were justified but whether anyone on the Soundhole posted that they were. I've just re-read this entire thread, and the closest I get to that is Coachdoc's post (on 10/15) that reads in its entirety "One hundred percent Israel’s fault. Palestinians have been there forever. Israelis just showed up and said get the fuck outa the way. Not a very nice move. I have nothing against Jews per se, but Zionists have no right." A position with which nobody else agreed.
So Bruce's take on the Soundhole's atmosphere is, to put it mildly, contrafactual.
On edit, and to be even-handed: Coachdoc's take has some serious problems with the complicated history of Zionism and of the conflicts surrounding the establishment of the state of Israel. Some of them have been mentioned in the course of this thread, and there's more where they came from.
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Post by epaul on Nov 3, 2023 17:04:51 GMT -5
There are some people in this country who hold Israel to be responsible for the conflict between Hamas and Israel. Maybe 15-20% of the population* Maybe. Some of these people are Democrats. And they comprise maybe 10% of the Democratic party, a party that very much in the overall has long been very pro-Israeli (more so the the Rs).
But Bruce has paid attention. He has done the math. Connected the dots and crossed the T's. All Democrats are cheering for Hamas, and we on this board are responsible.
I didn't know, Bruce. Bummer! I was feeling bad enough about turning the country over to the Communists, and now this. Double Bummer.
* this is roughly the same percentage of the population as those who believe there are several members of congress that were not born on this planet. As a rule of thumb, it is safe to say that 15-20% of the population can be found to believe in any damn thing you can come up with.
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Israel
Nov 3, 2023 17:23:40 GMT -5
Post by epaul on Nov 3, 2023 17:23:40 GMT -5
By the way, I would like to point out that I, a forum member, pointed out right off the bat, on page 1, that Biden was responsible. Clear as bell. I said "It's all Biden's Fault."
But, did I get any credit for my perspicacity from the conservative wing? Heck no. The opposite. And not only that, one of them even insulted my dog!
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Israel
Nov 4, 2023 4:37:04 GMT -5
Post by millring on Nov 4, 2023 4:37:04 GMT -5
Still, it strikes me as significant that nobody jumped in to correct Coachdoc's outrageous assertions as they would have if I had posted some sort of defense of Netanyahu over the years. In fact, only JohnB agreed with me that it's upside down to be so apologetic for Netanyahu that Hamas is, what, "understandable" if not justifiable? ...and yet, until Russell felt the need to be "even handed" so that he could seem the reasonable one in pounding down Bruce, nobody said anything about Coachdoc -- though it was probably the most outrageous opinion in the thread so far.
When Bruce asked, "What atrocities has Israel done over the years?" did you impulsively go to google to find some?
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Nov 4, 2023 9:39:09 GMT -5
Still, it strikes me as significant that nobody jumped in to correct Coachdoc's outrageous assertions as they would have if I had posted some sort of defense of Netanyahu over the years. In fact, only JohnB agreed with me that it's upside down to be so apologetic for Netanyahu that Hamas is, what, "understandable" if not justifiable? ...and yet, until Russell felt the need to be "even handed" so that he could seem the reasonable one in pounding down Bruce, nobody said anything about Coachdoc -- though it was probably the most outrageous opinion in the thread so far. When Bruce asked, "What atrocities has Israel done over the years?" did you impulsively go to google to find some? Coach Docs assertion was outrageous, as was Bruce’s assertion the Dems were Nazis. Was one more outrageous than the other? You decide. I tend to stay off these topics, no matter how outrageous the statements, because, after all these years, virtually no one ever changes their position. It’s pointless. The war over there is a horror show for all involved. I wish there was a clear path to peace, but there isn’t. There is plenty of blame to spread around. Mike
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Post by John B on Nov 4, 2023 9:59:07 GMT -5
John has a point - both were outrageous, yet one guy gets a pass (or at least, no challenges) while another gets called out immediately.
Unfortunately I don't know a lot about the history of Israel as it currently exists. My primary exposure to any history of Israel has been the Old and New Testaments, which has led me to believe Israelites have a historical claim on the area. Whether it's the entire area or a portion of the area (a two-state solution) is not for me to say. But to say the terrorist attack by Hamas was 100% Israel's fault is just plain wrong.
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Israel
Nov 4, 2023 10:09:44 GMT -5
Post by epaul on Nov 4, 2023 10:09:44 GMT -5
Coach stated his opinion.
Bruce stated ours.
"Still waiting for someone to tell me what atrocities Israel did to make y'all think October 7th was reasonable."
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Post by Russell Letson on Nov 4, 2023 10:09:47 GMT -5
"Could seem to be the reasonable one" is an interestingly dismissive description of the urge not to put up with egregious and offensive error. As for wanting to "pound down" on Bruce, my tongue is about half bitten-off from restraining myself. As it is on a nontrivial number of occasions in regard to more members than one.
I am by inclination and training fussy, precise, cautious and disinclined to wrangling. But I am also the product of a decent education and decades of extensively fact-checked journalistic work, so every once in a while an internal buffer over-runs and I post something politely (I hope) corrective.
You guys have no idea how much I have spared you of my schoolmarmish side. (And all this will be on the final exam.)
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Israel
Nov 4, 2023 10:27:07 GMT -5
Post by Cornflake on Nov 4, 2023 10:27:07 GMT -5
Someone once suggested that before we speak, we should ask whether what we're about to say is true, whether it's kind and whether it needs to be said. I'm not generally inclined to test my behavior against anyone's guidelines. As guidelines go, though, those aren't bad.
The requirement that something needs to be said has to be applied in a relaxed manner or we'd all stay silent most of the time. That wouldn't be much fun.
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Israel
Nov 4, 2023 10:28:17 GMT -5
Post by epaul on Nov 4, 2023 10:28:17 GMT -5
Coach stated his opinion.
Bruce stated ours.
("Still waiting for someone to tell me what atrocities Israel did to make y'all think October 7th was reasonable.")
There is a difference between stating a particular and claiming the general. There is a difference between a personal statement and a shotgun accusation. There is a difference between saying "I believe" and "you believe".
In each case above, the latter example will generally provoke a reaction while the former will often get a pass, particularly when uttered by a person not generally associated with forum contentiousness or debate.
Specifically, Coach is welcome to his thoughts. Bruce isn't welcome to claim he knows ours. "We'all" (Forum Communists) did not think October 7 was reasonable.
________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Still waiting for someone to tell me what atrocities Israel did to make y'all think October 7th was reasonable."
There is no sane reading of this thread that could allow for such an accusation, and it provoked a reaction. No hidden meaning.
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Israel
Nov 4, 2023 10:56:18 GMT -5
Post by Russell Letson on Nov 4, 2023 10:56:18 GMT -5
Bruce's post is a version of "Are you still beating your wife?" There are a couple of technical terms for that fallacy--loaded question, complex question--and to my ear it is kin to good old question-begging.
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Israel
Nov 4, 2023 10:59:07 GMT -5
Post by brucemacneill on Nov 4, 2023 10:59:07 GMT -5
Coach stated his opinion. Bruce stated ours. ("Still waiting for someone to tell me what atrocities Israel did to make y'all think October 7th was reasonable.") There is a difference between stating a particular and claiming the general. There is a difference between a personal statement and a shotgun accusation. There is a difference between saying "I believe" and "you believe". In each case above, the latter example will generally provoke a reaction while the former will often get a pass, particularly when uttered by a person not generally associated with forum contentiousness or debate. Specifically, Coach is welcome to his thoughts. Bruce isn't welcome to claim he knows ours. "We'all" (Forum Communists) did not think October 7 was reasonable. ________________________________________________________________________________________________ "Still waiting for someone to tell me what atrocities Israel did to make y'all think October 7th was reasonable." There is no sane reading of this thread that could allow for such an accusation, and it provoked a reaction. No hidden meaning. Then I'll assume that Israel is free to do what it needs to do to stay alive and y'all won't complain because you understand. We'll see.
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