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Post by epaul on Mar 13, 2024 15:54:32 GMT -5
I suspect that you read what you thought I wrote instead of what I wrote, or your sarcasm wasn't in response to my pointing out that Biden is the most popularly elected president in history. Playing cutsie? I read and responded to exactly what you wrote... and baldly inferred (based off a faith-based claim you have made repeatedly on this forum). As Russell would say, Pull the other one...
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Post by millring on Mar 13, 2024 16:05:19 GMT -5
No, I'm saying that Biden is the most popularly elected president in the history of presidential elections -- eclipsing President Obama by a count that would amount to the entire population of a major American city. Unless one believes that he didn't actually win that election or garner that many votes.
He didn't barely eclipse Obama's total. He eclipsed it by millions.
And if you want to attribute it to simple population increase and not Biden's popularity, then you'd have to account for the fact that Clinton got fewer votes than Obama, even though the population had 8 years to grow. Numbers say that Biden is very popular.
It's Democrats here who fear Trump's chances, not me. And I'm saying they have nothing to fear. They DON'T believe there was anything wrong with the 2020 count. The numbers favor them. The very guy who got all those votes is still the candidate. He should easily win again.
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Post by epaul on Mar 13, 2024 16:21:14 GMT -5
Coach, the only reason Millring is saying Biden is the most popularly elected president in history is because, as he has repeatedly claimed and believes, the only way Biden could be in that "top" position is because the election was stolen and all those Biden votes are tainted by fraud. That is a faith-based claim, a faith-based belief.
I don't think that is what you meant to "like".
There is no rational reason to hold that the only way Biden could have gotten more votes than Obama was due to a fraudulent stolen election. An increase in the voting population of 37 million rationally accounts for the fact that there were more votes cast in 2020 than there were in 2008.
But, Millring is deep in the stolen election conspiracy and is party to the screwy twists, fictions, and desperate distortions and maneuverings that fuel that damaging nonsense.
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Post by millring on Mar 13, 2024 16:33:46 GMT -5
Millring is deep in the stolen election conspiracy and is party to the screwy twists, fictions, and desperate distortions that fuel that nonsense. No, I'm not. I haven't really read much about suggested conspiracies.
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Post by epaul on Mar 13, 2024 16:46:00 GMT -5
Don't worry Democrats. Biden won by fraud and cheat the first time, he will win by fraud and cheat again.
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Post by millring on Mar 13, 2024 17:04:16 GMT -5
That's 37 million more "over 18s" in the 2020 election than there were in the 2008 election. 37 million. 37,000,000. Yet some find it so super-suspiciously strange that Biden got 1 million more votes in 2020 than Obama got in 2008. So super-suspiciously strange that they call fraud and cheat as the only plausible explanation. All 37 million did not register to vote. Biden did not get 1 million more votes in 2020 than Obama got in 2008. He got 11,784,582 more votes than Obama got in 2008. Trump also got 11,237,852 more votes than he did in 2016. Biden got 15,429,473 more votes than Hillary did in 2016. That's a total of 26,667,325 more popular votes than in 2016. That's a very high total to account for with population growth. There wasn't a growth of 37 million between '16 and '20. By your accounting, that was the increase over 12 years, not 4. You may still be fine with those numbers, but it wasn't just 1 million more votes than Obama.
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Post by aquaduct on Mar 13, 2024 17:21:52 GMT -5
Everyone knows there's no such thing as an October Surprise. Could be true. But this is more like a Late June Surprise. And the EPA losing their ability to regulate CO2 would be instantaneous. The rest of it may take a few weeks to follow.
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Post by Marshall on Mar 13, 2024 17:23:51 GMT -5
Percentage of eligible voters who actually cast ballots is traditionally low in this country. I believe a higher percentage of voters came out in 2020 because of the controversy of Trump & Biden. Trump got more votes than 2016. He also turned off more voters than 2016. In 2016, a lot of people thought it was a done deal for Hillary, and probably stayed home.
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Post by millring on Mar 13, 2024 17:36:38 GMT -5
Percentage of eligible voters who actually cast ballots is traditionally low in this country. I believe a higher percentage of voters came out in 2020 because of the controversy of Trump & Biden. Trump got more votes than 2016. He also turned off more voters than 2016. In 2016, a lot of people thought it was a done deal for Hillary, and probably stayed home. Actually, the lowest number in recent history "came out". It was the year of the mail in vote. In excess of 65.6 million, cast postal votes. And, again, the number of people Trump "turned off" doesn't imply that they changed their vote from R to D. In fact, the fact that he got almost 12 million more votes than in 2016 would imply that he didn't "turn off" too many (to have done so suggests that his vote total would have been even greater than the increase of 12 million had he not lost those voters as you suggest).
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Post by Cornflake on Mar 13, 2024 18:13:56 GMT -5
A sampling of my many Trump-supporting relatives suggests that he lost a chunk of supporters after January 6th. Whether some of those later drifted back to him, ala Mitch McConnell, I don't know. I suspect so.
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Post by Russell Letson on Mar 13, 2024 20:21:50 GMT -5
John: MAGA is a self-lumping social group*. And while "evil" is not a descriptor I'm comfortable with, I'm not afraid of "pathological" or "delusional" as a characterization of a movement that cheers when its leader says untrue or childishly nasty (to use one of of his favorite adjectives) things loudly and repeatedly.
I don't see any glaring problems with my description of the evolution of the culture that produced MAGA, or of the forces that feed its resentments.
* And they certainly are a group--they have hats and tee-shirts and bumper stickers and chants and all the rest of the things that make for collective identity. They're not the only self-identified sociopolitical group (all god's children got a tee-shirt), but you can pick 'em out of a crowd even when they're not the entire crowd themselves.
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Post by david on Mar 13, 2024 20:42:20 GMT -5
Percentage of eligible voters who actually cast ballots is traditionally low in this country. I believe a higher percentage of voters came out in 2020 because of the controversy of Trump & Biden. Trump got more votes than 2016. He also turned off more voters than 2016. In 2016, a lot of people thought it was a done deal for Hillary, and probably stayed home. Actually, the lowest number in recent history "came out". It was the year of the mail in vote. In excess of 65.6 million, cast postal votes. And, again, the number of people Trump "turned off" doesn't imply that they changed their vote from R to D. In fact, the fact that he got almost 12 million more votes than in 2016 would imply that he didn't "turn off" too many (to have done so suggests that his vote total would have been even greater than the increase of 12 million had he not lost those voters as you suggest). Trump inspired many people to vote. He was and continues to be, a daily headline, for his political views, bombastic nature, litigiousness, celebrity status, loud mouth, ad hominess statements, mendacity, and publicly petty nature. The many a-political, historically non-voting people, voted. Whether you liked him or hated him, he made people want to give their opinion about him. As to mail-in ballots, it can increase voter turnout when voters want to be heard. It is easy, especially if you have a ballot mailed to you. Whether you try to objectively analyze a candidate or adopted the views heard on Twitter, Fox News, MSNBC, or CNN, voting is easier. No travel beyond a mailbox, no standing in line, weather is not a factor, and you just need a stamp for your letter if you want to mail it, or you can drop it off at a collections station if that is available in your state.
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Post by Marshall on Mar 14, 2024 10:33:15 GMT -5
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Post by coachdoc on Mar 14, 2024 16:34:49 GMT -5
Just to get rid of a candidate who can't win anyway. You underestimate the orange one.
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Post by coachdoc on Mar 14, 2024 16:36:42 GMT -5
Don't worry Democrats. Biden won by fraud and cheat the first time, he will win by fraud and cheat again. What hallucinogen are you adding to your Wheaties.
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Post by Russell Letson on Mar 14, 2024 17:11:40 GMT -5
Doc, check your irony detector--I think it needs new batteries.
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Post by epaul on Mar 14, 2024 22:20:53 GMT -5
Don't worry Democrats. Biden won by fraud and cheat the first time, he will win by fraud and cheat again. What hallucinogen are you adding to your Wheaties. Hey, I was just translating, without the fuzz, what Millring said... and has said often. John maintains the election was cooked, that Biden's vote total was padded, augmented, crookedly tilted in the Democrats favor. He has maintained this repeatedly, in this thread and others. In the section quoted below, as clear as bell, what John, translated, said was, "Don't worry Democrats, the same forces that conspired to steal the last election for you by padding Biden's vote total will do so again". His words are smoother than my translation, but the meaning is the same and my translation is dead on. Read the original wording below ... It's Democrats here who fear Trump's chances, not me. And I'm saying they have nothing to fear. They DON'T believe there was anything wrong with the 2020 count. The numbers favor them. The very guy who got all those votes is still the candidate. He should easily win again.
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Post by epaul on Mar 14, 2024 23:24:10 GMT -5
I was looking at the 2020 popular vote results as they have been compared to the 2016 results.
Typically, the comparison is focused on Biden, as in "Joe Biden got 15 million more votes in 2020 than Hillary did in 2016, how can this be unless Democratic operatives were padding his vote total dishonestly".
Well, when I took a look at Trump's vote totals from the same 2016 election, I noted that Trump got 11 million more votes in 2020 than Trump himself got in 2016. That's a crazy huge jump in votes as well. And Trump's jump over his 2016 Self is even more puzzling, if you are wont to puzzle, than Biden's jump over Hillary!
If there there were to be a contest for the most unpopular female politician ever in the history of the universe, Hillary would be the odds on favorite to win. Is it such a great surprise then that twinkle-eyed, likeable Joe Biden would be able to get 15 million more votes than Hillary, Queen of the Shrews!
But, how did Trump manage to get 11 million more votes in 2020 than he garnered in 2016. He is the same guy. He is being compared to himself. Granted, 11 million isn't the same as 15 million, but it is close and it is a hell of lot. Where did all those crazy 11 million more Trump votes than a short four years ago come from?
And Trump can't play the Hillary card.
Where did those crazy 11 million extra Trump votes come from?
Expert analysis suggests only two possibilities:
1) There were more people voting.
2) The bastard was cheating.
We can discount the first one, more people voting, as that has already been discounted as a factor accounting for Biden's stash. That leaves cheating. There is no honest way Trump could have picked up 11 million more votes in four short years, YET HE DID!
Biden, at least, can point to his huge gain over Hillary by saying, "Hey, it was Hillary. It wasn't that tough". But, Trump has no Hillary to explain away the huge margin of votes he racked up. He can't say, "Hey, the only reason I got so crazy many more votes in 2020 was because the guy in 2016 was a real asshole".
Biden got the most votes in history in 2020. Trump got the second most votes in history in that same 2020 election. Both smashed the old record. (and both both beat the impossible to beat Obama totals)
Where did all those record smashing votes come from? Where?
Were both candidates cooking the books? Or were there simply more people voting in 2020 than ever before? Whichever one you go with, the same tail has to be tied to both record breakers, Trump and Biden. Unless your brains have been replaced by a "GO TEAM!" bumper sticker.
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Post by millring on Mar 15, 2024 5:30:36 GMT -5
No, 11 million isn't close to 15 million. 11 is close to 15, but 11 million isn't close to 15 million.
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,914
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Post by Dub on Mar 15, 2024 10:17:44 GMT -5
To paraphrase Everett Dirksen: 'A million votes here, a million votes there, and pretty soon you're talking about real support.'
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