Swing jazz comping

[Deleted]

Hi everybody,

I've been playing for some senior centers and they love those old swing songs. I love them too but I find the faster ones hard to play. One song on their list for example is, "Red, Red Robin" which I really like. Steve Goodman did a great version of this.
My challenge is that it is a fast rhythm with lots of chord changes.
Is there anyone here that is particularly good at comping these kind of chord progressions?

any help is much appreciated!

[aquaduct]

I don't know where you're getting your chords, but typically the changes that are written out are too complex by a factor of 2 or 3. The advice I have is simplify, simplify, simplify.

If the changes are from a recording and if you did some advanced analysis, you'd be able to detect that the player is only using small clusters of notes up and down the neck that actually change very little from one chord to another. When written out with cowboy chords or straight full barre chords, however, they're all over the frickin' place.

You also don't need the full chord. A simple G will take the place of a G7, G6, Gmaj7, G13, G9 and the occasional C#7#5 (tritone sub) if you can't get there any other way.

Really. And slow the heck down if required. It's not like Steve Goodman's version is going to go over better than Wrenblue's version with fewer changes and at a slower pace. Moses didn't include "Thou shalt play just like the record" as commandment #14.

[dickt]

Wren,

DC area's Marcy Marxer has an instructional series from Homespun Tapes.

Do you know a Greg Allen in C'ville who is trying to get more musicians to play in senior homes, etc. in a project called SongSharing or something? He's been coming to an open mic in Orange that we have on Friday and Saturday at Not the Same Old Grind coffeehouse.

dick thaxter

[billhammond]

I was gonna make those same points, but Peter did it much better than I would have, Wren.

One thing I might add, though, is that it might be easier to find simple arrangements in the first place rather than trying to simplify complicated ones yourself. With the Internet, you can just search "simple (song title) chords," for instance.

Your strumming hand can more than make up for any concerns about oversimplifying the harmonic structure that your other hand is doing, as long as you set a cool groove at the outset and keep it going. Using some hand damping might lend a percussive feel, too, as you strum the chords.

[Deleted]

Thanks much everyone so far. I have found some simpler arrangements of some songs and I may just do that. I don't always have a lot of time to develop a lot of songs from gig to gig. It's true that they do list so many chords but in some cases it is just a matter of changing one finger in the chord. (like A to A9 for example)

I was thinking of checking out Marcy Marxer videos on the subject as I know she's quite good at swing tunes.

Dick, yes I do know Greg Allen, nice man. However.... there is a slight problem in that there are others of us who are trying to make a living playing music. I did the volunteer route for years. I do need to pay for gas and food.. but I do admire what he is doing.

[Greg B]

I love playing that stuff. I'm at work and can't post a huge, long post of jazz chords but here's the basics:

All you need is a Maj7, 7th, min7 and m7b5 with a root on the E string and a root on the A string. With these 8 chord positions you can play almost everything in Jazz or Swing.

For Maj7 with root on E I play 3 x 4 4 3 x x or x x 5 4 3 2 for a G major7

For A string root (in this case C Maj7) I play x 3 5 4 5 3

I'm going to make all these chords in G or C to make it easier to type quickly

7th chord in G 3 x 3 4 5 5 (actually an "add 13")
7th chord in C x 3 2 3 3 3 (actually a C9)

Min7 in G 3 x 3 3 3 x
Min7 in C I play a min 9 x 3 1 3 3 3

m7b5 in G 3 x 3 3 4 x
m7b5 in C x 3 4 3 4 x

[aquaduct]

I also have the book "Swing Guitar Essentials" in the Acoustic Guitar magazine series. It's pretty reasonable as a quick reference.

One of the articles goes through the development of "swing" changes for "I've Got Rhythm" and "Honeysuckle Rose" if I recall. Basically starts as a typical 3 chord G, C, D ditty and goes through the substitutions that turn them into swing tunes. Both of them become standard swing tune progressions (ever heard the term "rhythm changes"? Guess which tune that is).

Simple, simple, simple. Embarrassingly so once you understand the concept. Great players then carry it forward with more substitutions and tensions, but most every single tune you can name or would want to do at the senior's home can be stripped down to a fairly simple 3 or 4 chord structure.

Once you understand the trick, you'll be able to take any tune and dress it appropriately to make it pleasingly "swingy" and doable.

[Deleted]

Oh yeah, I get it now! I forgot all about that idea to take a chord form and move it around like that. Once you know the form and the root of the chord, you can go anywhere. I am not as familiar with jazz chords but I love them and want to play them more. I love swing especially.
Dru, thanks a lot for that info! That will help me a lot.

[Deleted]

Aqua, yes I see what you are saying that's very helpful. Since I am playing these songs not for a concert, it doesn't matter if they aren't the most inspired arrangements.. So long as I can make it sound recognizable to them, that's all that matters. (and have fun playing them)

This reminds me of when I learned the I, IV, V trick in folk songs (rock songs too) --if someone asks for a song I don't know and it's pretty basic, I can just choose the key to sing it in and do the I, IV, V chords in that key and it will pass.

Thanks a lot you guys!

[Deleted]

ah so I can apply the I, IV, V trick but using the fancy jazz chords and that will work, huh?

[aquaduct]

Jun 11, 2008 15:22:32 GMT -5 @wrenblue said:

ah so I can apply the I, IV, V trick but using the fancy jazz chords and that will work, huh?

Yep, or at least a relative of the I, IV, V trick.

G, C, G, C in a section becomes Em7, Am7, D7, G6.

Fancy jazz chord stuff there.

[Deleted]

Oh so you would use the relative minor key of the major. That makes sense.

That's interesting and it opens up a whole world for me. Wow!

[aquaduct]

Right. You're not really using fancy chords (at least not in certain keys), but you're taking a different approach to the landing, if you will.

I, IV, V is OK but somewhat plain. ii-7, V7 or vi-7, ii-7, V7 (in the case above) provides a bit tastier and interesting approach to resolution on I (or its fancier versions of Imaj7 or I6).

Those are standard jazz harmony ideas. Think short phrases (2-4 bars) with the last chord as the destination or landing pad. Then you're cycling, often by 4ths, toward that landing pad.

There are more advanced tricks that build on the same idea and some very common progressions (rhythm changes, Coltrane changes) that form the basic underpinnings of jazz tunes.

But if you experiment a bit, you can go a heck of a long way with the good old ii, V, I. And you really don't need to get into fancier inversions and complicated changes at all.

Combine that with the CAGED chord system that dru laid out (i.e.- you can turn any one of those open chords; C, A, G, E, D; into a moveable form with some simplification and maybe a partial barre or two) and you can be a swing comping nut in no time.

[Russell Letson]

Wren--Apologies if I'm offering things you already know, but here's part of what got me operational for swing.

In swing tunes, some voicings sound more idiomatic than others. First piece of advice for swing rhythm chords: Use "closed" chord shapes rather than those with open strings. Second: Use the three- and four-string voicings sometimes called "Freddie Green" chords. These are played mostly on the 6-5-4-3-2 set, often with just the 6-4-3 sounding and the unused strings muted by the fingers of the fretting hand.

For example the commonest swing voicing for a G6 (which is the commonest version of a G) is 3x243x, fingered MxIPRx. The IV chord is usually a C9, 3-(3)-2-3-3-3/M(M)IRRR, and the V is this C9 shape moved up two frets (This whole family of shapes is movable, so once you have them under control you can play in, say, B-flat or whatever up the neck.) Actually, the Freddie Green approach uses only the *three* fingers on the 6-5-4-3 subset and mutes the high B and E strings. My most systematic teacher, Ted Conner, based his whole approach on three-note chords, with changes often depending on just *one* finger changing position while the other two remain planted: G6 to C7 just moves the ring finger down one fret:

3(M)x2(I)4(R)-->3(M)x2(I)3(R).

Or one finger will stay put while the other two swap positions:

G6 to G7 is 3(M)x2(I)4(R)-->3(I)x3(M)4(R).

Those two sets of moves, along with the three-finger D7 (5x45) gives you a swing-blues progression with minimal movement:

|G6 |C7 |G6 |G7 |
|C7 |C7 |G6 |G6|
|D7 |C7 |G6 |D7|

There's a bunch of other stuff that I gradually absorbed or realized as I applied this approach to standards, especially that many of these minimal shapes function as diminished chords and that other shapes also do double duty as 9 or dim or m6 chords. There's a relatively small number of shapes or grips that move or are easily adapted to apply to what look like complicated changes, and once the fingers have absorbed them, all kinds of repertory is opened up.

The other big recognition was that much of the Great American Songbook is built from standard sub-assemblies like ii-V-I or I-vi-II-V passages that can be expressed by sets of minimal-move shape-sets. Learn two songs and chances are you've learned important pieces of several others, and so it grows.

[Deleted]

Aqua & Russell & Dru & all, thanks so much for the useful information. I understand all of what you are saying. I am familiar with the CAGED system and the other ideas you wrote out. The ideas you gave me are things I knew in bits and pieces but never had it all put together in this way before.
It is very helpful for me to be able to work up some tunes for them. I have a few weeks, so that is good. I really love swing music too and now thanks to your help, I will have more fun learning it!

thanks again!!

[Doug]

I don't have a lot of time and others have said it better than I could. I call a lot of those funky chords, passing chords and just make them by moving one or two fingers on the way to the next normal chord.

[Deleted]

My update is that last night I went home with these ideas you guys gave me and rearranged my version of Blue Moon.
I have been playing that song with basic chords G, em, Am, D (or something like it) capoed up on the 3rd fret to sing in Bb.
So, applying the Fred Green 3 string chords, I rearranged the tune in much more tasteful sounding chords in Bb and it is not hard to play either. I tried out the system on a song I already know, next up will be a song to learn from scratch with this new knowledge.

thanks again!

[Russell Letson]

You've actually started with a moderately tricky tune for B-flat, thanks to that odd shift in the second half of the B section--how have you decided to handle that part?

If I want to keep that I-VI-ii-V bass line in the A section, I have to shift bass notes between the 6th and 5th strings and use the x-10-8-10 shape for the Gm.

[billhammond]

Jun 13, 2008 12:59:46 GMT -5 Russell Letson said:

If I want to keep that I-VI-ii-V bass line in the A section, I have to shift bass notes between the 6th and 5th strings and use the x-10-8-10 shape for the Gm.

Welcome, boys and girls, to this week's

FUN WITH ESOTERICA!

[Russell Letson]

My playing isn't even the teensiest bit erotic. Ask anybody.