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Post by Chesapeake on Dec 15, 2010 10:43:08 GMT -5
www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/12/15/florida.meeting.shooting/A detective friend once told me about a gunfight in a hallway between two guys armed with handguns shooting at each other from a distance of about 10 feet. They emptied their guns and nobody got hurt, other than bruised feelings. With a handgun, the slightest rotation of the wrist sends the bullet off in an entirely different direction. I'm amazed at the courage shown here. The board president who offered to be the one to get shot if the gunman would let the others go, and the woman who was allowed to leave but sneaked back in and tried to knock the gun out of his hand with her purse. Who knows what ordinary people are capable of when put to the test?
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Post by omaha on Dec 15, 2010 10:49:32 GMT -5
Quite a story! Wow. I'm particularlly pleased with this part: Littleton told CNN Wednesday she thought she was going to die, but she went back inside because "I was concerned about my guys. They were lined up like ducks in a row. He was already basically standing on the same level as them. I knew something bad was going to happen. That was my only option ... my guys had three-ring binders and pencils for protection [/i], and that's all."[/blockquote] Never underestimate the power of binders.
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Post by Doug on Dec 15, 2010 10:52:26 GMT -5
I believe but don't believe that he couldn't hit one of them at that range even as hard as it is to hit something with a handgun. Good thing he was a clumsily idiot.
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Post by omaha on Dec 15, 2010 11:00:35 GMT -5
I guess its a good thing that very few people serious enough about handguns to spend meaningful amounts of time at target practice would actually do such a thing.
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Post by aquaduct on Dec 15, 2010 11:02:38 GMT -5
One of the companies I used to work for had a corporate retreat down in Blackwater where they ran us through 2 days of basic handgun training like you'd get as a policeman or soldier or mercenary or whatever. They told us that the average street shootout is at a range of about 7 feet and is over in roughly a nanosecond, so much of the training was shooting at moving targets in rapid sucession from a range of 7-10 feet.
I'm here to tell you as just a common idiot off the street that that's a hell of a lot harder than you'd think it would be.
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Post by RickW on Dec 15, 2010 11:31:22 GMT -5
And I imagine that when someone is standing 10 feet away shooting at you, you tend to move.
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Post by aquaduct on Dec 15, 2010 11:38:28 GMT -5
And I imagine that when someone is standing 10 feet away shooting at you, you tend to move. Never been there, fortuneatly. Don't know if I'd freeze, move, or just slip and fall on the puddle of pee on the floor.
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Post by Russell Letson on Dec 15, 2010 12:02:46 GMT -5
I've often marveled at the depiction of handgun accuracy in movies and on telly, particularly when I think about the geometry and physics involved (2-6" barrel, multi-axis pivot point, trigger-finger lever system, Newton's laws, and such) and wonder how anybody ever hits anything except on a range with a sandbag to rest the shooting hand on. If I ever feel the need for a home-protection firearm, it's going to be measured in gauge, not caliber and make a big nasty noise when a round is chambered.
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Post by RickW on Dec 15, 2010 12:06:09 GMT -5
Either that or a baseball bat. You know where that sucker is going.
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Post by Russell Letson on Dec 15, 2010 12:10:37 GMT -5
I'm waiting for a pocket-size digital-audio device with a powerful enough amp/speaker that a recording of the ka-chuck of a 12-gauge pump would sound convincing. Or maybe just a big red bedside button wired to the stereo. For good measure, add "Get 'em, Rinty!" and some growls and you've at least made a break-in artist stop and look around while you dial 911.
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Post by Chesapeake on Dec 15, 2010 12:18:57 GMT -5
I'm thinking of getting the stereo wired to the bedside button to say, "You've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya punk?"
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Post by omaha on Dec 15, 2010 12:38:33 GMT -5
I wonder how these guys would do if they knew the targets could shoot back?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2010 12:58:17 GMT -5
I saw the video on the morning news and it was reported that he had a small caliber pistol. Small caliber auto pistols are not the most accurate unless it is very well made.
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Post by aquaduct on Dec 15, 2010 13:06:42 GMT -5
I saw the video on the morning news and it was reported that he had a small caliber pistol. Small caliber auto pistols are not the most accurate unless it is very well made. They're specially designed target pistols. A freind of mine used to do those competitions. They're expensive and not real suitable for everyday use. And learning to shoot one like that is a bit like learning to throw touchdown passes like Tom Brady. Easy enough as long as there's not 800 lbs. of linebaker gunning for your head.
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Post by Marshall on Dec 15, 2010 13:10:29 GMT -5
My guess is, he really didn't want to kill anybody. He was really over-the-edge and wanted to do something awful and die himself.
Scary sad.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2010 13:11:54 GMT -5
Speaking of videos... A few years ago, there was a shootout between some Ohio cop and several militia-type guys. Both sides fired all rounds available to them at distances of perhaps 3-20 feet. Nobody got hurt, but the bad guys fled, and were arrested later. The video is from the cop car's dash, and most of the fireworks was recorded. I think the guy's name was Kehoe, if anyone wants to look for it.
Even assuming that all 3 shooters were incompetant (I don't think they were, really), it's just amazing that someone didn't take a round by accident or ricochet, or something, since there was probably 25-30 shots fired.
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Post by Chesapeake on Dec 15, 2010 19:43:57 GMT -5
I saw the video on the morning news and it was reported that he had a small caliber pistol. Small caliber auto pistols are not the most accurate unless it is very well made. I heard he had a 9mm. Not as big as a .45, but not exactly a pea-shooter.
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Post by sidheguitarmichael on Dec 16, 2010 0:41:15 GMT -5
My guess is, he really didn't want to kill anybody. He was really over-the-edge and wanted to do something awful and die himself. Scary sad. Having seen the footage, I'd say that may well be true. The folks on the school board were, literally, sitting ducks at the moment he opened fire-not that they didn't start moving quickly once the noise started. I used to be a member of ASLET (American society of law enforcement trainers), and I've taken a number of different classes most likely similar in nature to aqua's blackwater facility foray. In one class, all the participants had a couple of rotations through various drills trying to hit either cardboard silhouette targets, or paper plates, on a robotic motorized mini-atv/dolley gizmo. Indeed, when stuff gets moving quickly and erratically out beyond 15 feet, it gets really hard. Best I had was two hits on the paper plate; that sounds pretty bad until I mention that about half the class got no hits, and the top dog (who was shooting a modified service size pistol with fiber optic sights, an oversize mag well and 5" of barrel) got a whopping three dots on the plate. So long as I am sharing trivia, here's some from my notes gathered from a couple of the better shooting classes in the US: The firefight hit ratio for law enforcement in general is 17 percent (!) From SOP 9 (the NYPD's 43-year old living document that contains all officer involved shootings-which is a whole bunch over the years): 0-6 feet is the average Almost always in diminished light Over in 2 1/2 seconds. I just hate hearing about guys who want to go out the way this Florida guy did. Just all kinds of tragic, IMO. Only upside there is that nobody else was seriously hurt or worse.
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Post by millring on Dec 16, 2010 7:53:53 GMT -5
I've often marveled at the depiction of handgun accuracy in movies and on telly, hey... ...wait just a doggone minnit. Aren't you the guy who likes "The Mentalist" and that show with the guy who has a superhuman capacity to determine when someone is lying? ...and it's pistol accuracy that bugs you? Heh. I don't have a problem with pistol accuracy on TV. After all, if Roy Rogers could shoot a pistol out of a bad guy's hand, that's proof enough for me.
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Post by aquaduct on Dec 16, 2010 8:37:10 GMT -5
Having seen the footage, I'd say that may well be true. The folks on the school board were, literally, sitting ducks at the moment he opened fire-not that they didn't start moving quickly once the noise started. I used to be a member of ASLET (American society of law enforcement trainers), and I've taken a number of different classes most likely similar in nature to aqua's blackwater facility foray. In one class, all the participants had a couple of rotations through various drills trying to hit either cardboard silhouette targets, or paper plates, on a robotic motorized mini-atv/dolley gizmo. Indeed, when stuff gets moving quickly and erratically out beyond 15 feet, it gets really hard. Best I had was two hits on the paper plate; that sounds pretty bad until I mention that about half the class got no hits, and the top dog (who was shooting a modified service size pistol with fiber optic sights, an oversize mag well and 5" of barrel) got a whopping three dots on the plate. So long as I am sharing trivia, here's some from my notes gathered from a couple of the better shooting classes in the US: The firefight hit ratio for law enforcement in general is 17 percent (!) From SOP 9 (the NYPD's 43-year old living document that contains all officer involved shootings-which is a whole bunch over the years): 0-6 feet is the average Almost always in diminished light Over in 2 1/2 seconds. I just hate hearing about guys who want to go out the way this Florida guy did. Just all kinds of tragic, IMO. Only upside there is that nobody else was seriously hurt or worse. Geez Michael, I'm beginning to think we're twins. Your mom isn't Norwegian is she?
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