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Post by brucemacneill on May 13, 2011 11:32:53 GMT -5
dhanners wrote too much to quote so it's a couple of posts up from here.
There are lots of jokes about bank robbers, the most famous probably being: "Why do you rob banks?" "Because that's where the money is." Yup, bank robbers are easy.
If you really want us to believe you, how about you root out a few terrorists and try them for crimes against Islam or something. Bin Laden lived for years in Pakistan because he was sheltered by Muslims. There are now revenge killings, we're told, but it's Muslims killing Muslims. What I haven't seen on the news is anything about Muslim anti-terrorist actions. To me that means you either aren't all that concerned or you're scared to take action against them. You can use words, but they use bombs and swords. In the absence of action, I'm left to believe you're not all that serious. For some reason you (Muslims) seem to believe that we must be concerned for your feelings but you do not have to be concerned with anyone else's. That's not how it works here. That may be how it works in the middle-east, in tribal cultures or under warlords but not here. We feel pretty much free to ridicule at will here. My beliefs are ridiculed on this forum constantly but it just rolls off or I throw some ridicule back. Check out "Comedy Central". That's how it works here.
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Post by Fingerplucked on May 13, 2011 11:39:15 GMT -5
dhanners wrote too much to quote so it's a couple of posts up from here. There are lots of jokes about bank robbers, the most famous probably being: "Why do you rob banks?" "Because that's where the money is." Yup, bank robbers are easy. If you really want us to believe you, how about you root out a few terrorists and try them for crimes against Islam or something. Bin Laden lived for years in Pakistan because he was sheltered by Muslims. There are now revenge killings, we're told, but it's Muslims killing Muslims. What I haven't seen on the news is anything about Muslim anti-terrorist actions. To me that means you either aren't all that concerned or you're scared to take action against them. You can use words, but they use bombs and swords. In the absence of action, I'm left to believe you're not all that serious. For some reason you (Muslims) seem to believe that we must be concerned for your feelings but you do not have to be concerned with anyone else's. That's not how it works here. That may be how it works in the middle-east, in tribal cultures or under warlords but not here. We feel pretty much free to ridicule at will here. My beliefs are ridiculed on this forum constantly but it just rolls off or I throw some ridicule back. Check out "Comedy Central". That's how it works here. Bruce, as a fellow Christian, am I obliged to tell you to shut up, or am I correct in thinking that you're not my responsibility?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2011 12:09:22 GMT -5
dhanners wrote too much to quote so it's a couple of posts up from here. There are lots of jokes about bank robbers, the most famous probably being: "Why do you rob banks?" "Because that's where the money is." Yup, bank robbers are easy. If you really want us to believe you, how about you root out a few terrorists and try them for crimes against Islam or something. Bin Laden lived for years in Pakistan because he was sheltered by Muslims. There are now revenge killings, we're told, but it's Muslims killing Muslims. What I haven't seen on the news is anything about Muslim anti-terrorist actions. To me that means you either aren't all that concerned or you're scared to take action against them. You can use words, but they use bombs and swords. In the absence of action, I'm left to believe you're not all that serious. For some reason you (Muslims) seem to believe that we must be concerned for your feelings but you do not have to be concerned with anyone else's. That's not how it works here. That may be how it works in the middle-east, in tribal cultures or under warlords but not here. We feel pretty much free to ridicule at will here. My beliefs are ridiculed on this forum constantly but it just rolls off or I throw some ridicule back. Check out "Comedy Central". That's how it works here. This is parody, right? Your constant use of the word "you" (as in things I should be doing since I'm Muslim) is really disconceting. And an obvious double standard. I'm assuming you took matters into your own hands to stop the people who shot and killed doctors or staffers at women's health clinics in the name of Christianity, right? And I'm sure your ancestors did what they could to stop the early Christians from killing heretics, something the church began doing around the 4th Century and continued for quite some time. Even the FBI will tell you that the help of the Muslim community has been instrumental in investigating would-be terrorists -- despite the fact our mosques have been spied on, phone lines tapped, etc. Oddly enough, I can't recall hearing about the FBI (or any law enforcement agency) spying on the church of Scott Roeder, even though he had repeatedly posted threatening writings about George Tiller, the doctor he eventually killed in cold blood. Maybe the FBI did spy on his church and I never heard about it, but using your logic, since I never heard about it, then it never happened. Muslims have been aiding in the fight against terrorism for a long time. I could post URLs all day, but a quick Google search comes up with these: articles.latimes.com/2002/jun/29/nation/na-mueller29martinsvillemedia.com/?p=3016www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htmI could go on, but I get the sense there's no use. According to you, I should be spending my time rooting out terrorists. Even though I don't know any, and I have a full-time job and a family and I'm really not trained in counter-terrorism or anything like that. I did pretty good at the rifle range at Camp Krietenstein when I was a Boy Scout, but that was over 40 years ago so I'm probably rusty.
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Post by dradtke on May 13, 2011 12:30:40 GMT -5
I believe hanners is from the middle-west.
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Tamarack
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Post by Tamarack on May 13, 2011 12:39:07 GMT -5
I guess Muslims denouncing violence and terrorism doesn't make for big headlines or excited talking heads like a suicide bombing. Then again, routine occurrences don't make the news, and Muslims denouncing violence is a routine occurrence.
I recall many instances of Muslims denouncing violence long before and long after 9/11 that hit the news media if anyone was paying attention. In November 1979, shortly after Iranian students took the US Embassy staff hostage, I recall Anwar Sadat shouting "This is not Islam" as well as denounciations from imams and political leaders of predominantly Muslim nations. (Prior to 1979, most Americans didn't know what an imam is).
Shortly after 9/11, the Muslim community in Grand Rapids took out a full-page ad in the major daily paper thanking the West Michigan community for their kindness (Christians standing to protect mosques, etc.) and denouncing terrorism, stating that "terrorists have no God and no Holy Book". I pointed this out to my self-identified conservative friend (a Rush Limbaugh kind of conservative) who hadn't heard about it -- he doesn't read the paper because he thinks the Republican-leaning Grand Rapids Press is a "leftist rag"
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Post by Fingerplucked on May 13, 2011 12:51:09 GMT -5
I believe hanners is from the middle-west. I heard that he's hiding out in a cave in the mountains in Minneconsin.
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Post by Chesapeake on May 13, 2011 14:21:39 GMT -5
Though I sympathize with Muslims who feel they are being unfairly stereotyped, I would not be so quick to dismiss complaints that mainstream Muslims aren't doing enough to denounce extremists. The most plausible explanation I've seen for how middle- and upper-class Germans allowed National Socialism to take hold in their country during the 1930s was that they stood by and allowed the less sophisticated among them begin to dress up in boots and black shirts and armbands and hold torchlight parades through the streets carrying medieval style banners. Pretty soon they graduated to shattering windows of shops owned by Jews. None of their own oxen were being gored, it seems, so they did very little to oppose the extremists, and then suddenly it was too late.
Many Americans, including this one, have most strongly denounced the oddball minister who wants to burn Korans. With all respect, I would welcome a little more vigor on the part of Muslims who oppose what is going on among the more radical of their own brothers and sisters. It might even help the cool their ardor if they see that they really are isolated within their own worldwide community.
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Dub
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Post by Dub on May 13, 2011 14:39:14 GMT -5
Though I sympathize with Muslims who feel they are being unfairly stereotyped, I would not be so quick to dismiss complaints that mainstream Muslims aren't doing enough to denounce extremists. ... Nobody denounces their extremists. Christians don't denounce their extremists. Neither do Republicans or Democrats. Of course way-out-lefties denounce each other for not being extreme enough but then so do way-out-rightists. - Dub
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Post by patrick on May 13, 2011 14:39:29 GMT -5
Though I sympathize with Muslims who feel they are being unfairly stereotyped, I would not be so quick to dismiss complaints that mainstream Muslims aren't doing enough to denounce extremists. .... Many Americans, including this one, have most strongly denounced the oddball minister who wants to burn Korans. With all respect, I would welcome a little more vigor on the part of Muslims who oppose what is going on among the more radical of their own brothers and sisters. It might even help the cool their ardor if they see that they really are isolated within their own worldwide community. The problem is, when mainstream Muslims denounce terrorism, how do you hear about it? For every Muslim leader who gets an occasional interview on TV or radio to denounce terrorism, there are a dozen bigots on the media insisting that NO MUSLIMS denounce terrorism. Quick, without Googling, what is the name of the Muslim leader whose views you regularly hear? The Imam of the (not at) Ground Zero (not a) mosque: What was his name, what sect of Islam is he from? If muslims are not actively being accused of supporting terrorism, they are pretty much invisible in American media. As for Muslims fighting terror, Hamas has been in a battle in Gaza to prevent an Al Qaeda offshoot from becoming established there, after 9/11 Iran cooperated with the US in capturing or killing AQ members trying to slip from Afghanistan into Iran (for which Iran was rewarded by being named part of the Axis of Evil), Saudi Arabia is fighting terrorists there, the Turkish Army has units in Afghanistan fighting AQ and the Taliban alongside the US troops. As for Christians denouncing Christian nuts, I actually don't recall any major Christian churches denouncing Terry Jones, or denouncing WBC, or speaking out against nuts like John Hagee.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2011 14:40:09 GMT -5
With all respect, I would welcome a little more vigor on the part of Muslims who oppose what is going on among the more radical of their own brothers and sisters. It might even help the cool their ardor if they see that they really are isolated within their own worldwide community. This is the kind of sentence that makes me want to pull my hair out. To repeat, you'll find a good compilation of what you're looking for at www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx Read that and tell me how much more Islamic organizations should be doing. I'm guessing you'd have us go door-to-door, apologizing to everyone and saying, "Hey, we're really against terrorism." What an incredible and sad double standard.
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Post by brucemacneill on May 13, 2011 14:42:57 GMT -5
"Bruce, as a fellow Christian, am I obliged to tell you to shut up, or am I correct in thinking that you're not my responsibility? "
Since I'm not a fellow Christian, no you're not responsible for me. You may also have forgotten that my argument is with terrorism in general whether Muslim or Irish Protestant or Catholic. I'm not a big fan of religious based violence or violence in general. I just think the religions that denounce violence should police their own if they want me to actually believe they denounce violence. While there are riots over Bin Laden's demise and Imams spewing hatred I'd like to see some action against those interests by other Muslims. I thought it was too early to use Chesapeake's argument but I appreciate it. We may get to page 7 eventually.
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Post by Chesapeake on May 13, 2011 14:51:55 GMT -5
With all respect, I would welcome a little more vigor on the part of Muslims who oppose what is going on among the more radical of their own brothers and sisters. It might even help the cool their ardor if they see that they really are isolated within their own worldwide community. This is the kind of sentence that makes me want to pull my hair out. To repeat, you'll find a good compilation of what you're looking for at www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx Read that and tell me how much more Islamic organizations should be doing. I'm guessing you'd have us go door-to-door, apologizing to everyone and saying, "Hey, we're really against terrorism." What an incredible and sad double standard. I think you'll find on this forum a considerable amount of outrage and denunciation of Pastor Jones when he slid out from under his rock to burn a Koran. I don't recall seeing any such denunciation of the recent string of failed attacks on Americans, or suicide bombings of, for example, Israelis, by any Muslims on this forum, and I take it there has been at least one here. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
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Post by Greg B on May 13, 2011 14:57:59 GMT -5
1) Yes, Bruce is often a parody.
2) Re: moderate Muslims speaking out against terrorism.
First of all, I think Mr Hanners is doing exactly that right here. Secondly, I'm sure there are a lot more speaking out but we don't hear about it because "Terrorist Want To Kill You!" is a great news story but "Not Really!" isn't. One of the side effects of news is that our perception of how common things are is skewed. Things which are not common get reported. Common occurrences aren't.
As I'm mentioned here before: "Dog bites man" isn't news. "Man bites dog" is.
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Post by Chesapeake on May 13, 2011 15:26:01 GMT -5
Though I sympathize with Muslims who feel they are being unfairly stereotyped, I would not be so quick to dismiss complaints that mainstream Muslims aren't doing enough to denounce extremists. ... Nobody denounces their extremists. Christians don't denounce their extremists. Neither do Republicans or Democrats. Of course way-out-lefties denounce each other for not being extreme enough but then so do way-out-rightists. - Dub Sounds good, but it's not really true. I hear Christians denounce their extremists all the time, including on this forum. There's been plenty of disownership of birthers by mainstream Republicans. (Can't think off hand of any liberals denouncing their wingnuts, but there's probably been a few.) ..... 2) Re: moderate Muslims speaking out against terrorism. First of all, I think Mr Hanners is doing exactly that right here... Au contraire. I'm sure Mr. Hanners would speak out against terrorism if asked to do so, but I believe the reason he appeared on this forum (reappeared?) just now was to speak out against what he saw as unfair criticism of mainstream Muslims for ... not speaking out more. Just trying to keep the scorecard straight. Anyway, I'm sure the point is correct that when mainstream Muslims do speak out, it's not well covered - though periodically I do hear such voices - mostly on Fox, ironically, and I do watch all three news channels pretty evenly. My point is - and I hope this doesn't cause any more hair loss to Mr. Hanners - I think they could and should do more.
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Post by brucemacneill on May 13, 2011 15:28:15 GMT -5
I denounce all negativity against Muslims.
Feel any better about me now?
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Post by omaha on May 13, 2011 15:32:27 GMT -5
I feel worse about you.
I vigorously support negativity towards Muslims who engage in terrorism. Actually, I vigorously support negativity towards anyone who engages in terrorism.
But I'd have to be blind to not notice that over the last couple of decades or so, Muslims have been disproportionately represented within the ranks of the terrorists.
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Post by brucemacneill on May 13, 2011 15:35:01 GMT -5
My point was that words do nothing to correct the underlying problem. Overt action is required.
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Post by omaha on May 13, 2011 15:35:38 GMT -5
Indeed.
(And agreed.)
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Post by patrick on May 13, 2011 15:45:51 GMT -5
I think you'll find on this forum a considerable amount of outrage and denunciation of Pastor Jones when he slid out from under his rock to burn a Koran. I don't recall seeing any such denunciation of the recent string of failed attacks on Americans, or suicide bombings of, for example, Israelis, by any Muslims on this forum, and I take it there has been at least one here. If I'm wrong, please correct me. That's on THIS forum. Where we have maybe three Muslims who show up occasionally. And all have denounced terrorism and violence. I suspect they have other things to do than run around constantly addressing every Muslim nut in the world. Where were Muslims in the media? When there is some outrage committed by a Muslim, is there automatically a Muslim on the news show to denounce it? If not, where would you ever hear their views? Please show me where any organized Christian church in America has a consistent practice of condemning every ridiculous act by a christian. Did the Pope or any Bishop condemn Jones in a press release? Any statement from the Southern Baptists? Northern Baptists? Any other direction Baptists? Presbyterians?
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Post by Fingerplucked on May 13, 2011 15:46:40 GMT -5
Let me know when you two have taken action against Terry Jones in Florida, the terrorist who masterminded the attacks against innocent citizens in Afghanistan.
I'm still pissed off about that crazy-assed Christian.
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