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Post by fauxmaha on Jun 6, 2016 15:36:41 GMT -5
I wonder what history will record as today's "crusades"? What is being destroyed today that history will regret in 1000 years? Glaciers? I'm still pissed at Bronze Age Europeans for using up all the surface-recoverable copper lying around. Just think how rich we would be if they had maintained a bit of regard for the future.
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Post by epaul on Jun 7, 2016 12:07:01 GMT -5
Tellings of the "Fall" of the Byzantine Empire too often mirror the tellings of the "Fall" of the Roman Empire. Apparently it is irresistible to attribute the respective "Falls" to a moral decline that, surprise surprise, is remarkably similar to an ongoing/impending moral decline in the "Teller's" country, one which must be stopped/reversed or the same fallen fate will occur.
Well, History is an open game, but in my history the story isn't in the Fall of Rome/Byzantium but is an amazement that they lasted as long as they did, especially as the last several hundred years of each was maintained by smoke, mirrors, and the political usefulness of sham religion.
Rome and Constantinople were city states, not countries. And the resources, including the soldiers, needed to maintain and hold their empires were located outside the city walls, not within. In the small world of city states and scattered disorganized tribes, Rome and Constantinople were able to kick ass. In a new and growing world of territorial units and emerging countries they couldn't compete. Real power passed elsewhere for real reasons, not mystical or moral ones. In the end, the long, long, long end, Rome and Constantinople (especially Constantinople) held only a sham power and existed as "Empire" only for the convenience of the raw and rough powers that had long earlier replaced them.
As for the relevance of either's history to the U.S., there is none. There is a difference between a dependent city bereft of resources within its walls and a large country filled to the brim with all that is needed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 12:20:23 GMT -5
Tellings of the "Fall" of the Byzantine Empire too often mirror the tellings of the "Fall" of the Roman Empire. Apparently it is irresistible to attribute the respective "Falls" to a moral decline that, surprise surprise, is remarkably similar to an ongoing/impending moral decline in the "Teller's" country, one which must be stopped/reversed or the same fallen fate will occur. Well, History is an open game, but in my history the story isn't in the Fall of Rome/Byzantium but is an amazement that they lasted as long as they did, especially as the last several hundred years of each was maintained by smoke, mirrors, and the political usefulness of sham religion. Rome and Constantinople were city states, not countries. And the resources, including the soldiers, needed to maintain and hold their empires were located outside the city walls, not within. In the small world of city states and scattered disorganized tribes, Rome and Constantinople were able to kick ass. In a new and growing world of territorial units and emerging countries they couldn't compete. Real power passed elsewhere for real reasons, not mystical or moral ones. In the end, the long, long, long end, Rome and Constantinople (especially Constantinople) held only a sham power and existed as "Empire" only for the convenience of the raw and rough powers that had long earlier replaced them. As for the relevance of either's history to the U.S., there is none. There is a difference between a dependent city bereft of resources within its walls and a large country filled to the brim with all that is needed. So, in other words, character doesn't matter? In that case, Go Trump!
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Post by epaul on Jun 7, 2016 12:56:51 GMT -5
"Character" is the provenance of scalawags, prophets, and those who wouldn't know it if it hit them upside the head twice over.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 12:58:28 GMT -5
"Character" is the provenance of scalawags, prophets, and those who wouldn't know it if it hit them upside the head twice over. Perhaps, we should differentiate between words used by demagogues and what the thing actually means.
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Post by epaul on Jun 7, 2016 13:01:04 GMT -5
..."character" in the sense of those (prophets, scalawags, et al) who try claim it had anything to do with "the fall" of the Roman Empire or the Byzantine one and then apply "the lesson" to suit and serve their own purposes.
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Post by Doug on Jun 7, 2016 13:08:58 GMT -5
Getting hard to not see DC as a "city state" dependent on outside resources.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 13:30:35 GMT -5
..."character" in the sense of those (prophets, scalawags, et al) who try claim it had anything to do with "the fall" of the Roman Empire or the Byzantine one and then apply "the lesson" to suit and serve their own purposes. Well, I believe there are themes that are repeated throughout history. I think you're talking about something else. The rise and fall of great empires and civilizations have things in common. What was that that Toynbee said? Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. Or something like that. It may have been Groucho Marx, though. What the heck do I know?
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Post by fauxmaha on Jun 7, 2016 14:02:16 GMT -5
Getting hard to not see DC as a "city state" dependent on outside resources. Why the smiley? You're exactly right.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 14:32:23 GMT -5
I always confuse Toynbee, Santayana and Groucho. "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it." The quote is most likely due to George Santayana, and in its original form it read, 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' - George Santayana I always wondered if he said it before or after he attacked the Alamo.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 14:34:35 GMT -5
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Post by Doug on Jun 7, 2016 14:37:33 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 14:38:01 GMT -5
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Post by dradtke on Jun 7, 2016 15:16:53 GMT -5
..."character" in the sense of those (prophets, scalawags, et al) who try claim it had anything to do with "the fall" of the Roman Empire or the Byzantine one and then apply "the lesson" to suit and serve their own purposes. That sounds like some people I know.
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Post by dradtke on Jun 7, 2016 15:17:36 GMT -5
I always confuse Toynbee, Santayana and Groucho. "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it." The quote is most likely due to George Santayana, and in its original form it read, 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' - George Santayana I always wondered if he said it before or after he attacked the Alamo. I thought Santana said, "Oye Como Va."
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Post by fauxmaha on Jun 7, 2016 15:52:45 GMT -5
Well, History is an open game, but in my history the story isn't in the Fall of Rome/Byzantium but is an amazement that they lasted as long as they did, especially as the last several hundred years of each was maintained by smoke, mirrors, and the political usefulness of sham religion. For some reason (probably a combination of simplicity and laziness), we tell history in terms of large institutions. The truth of the matter is that it was probably decades or more before the average person living under Roman or Byzantine rule even knew they were gone. The average Joe's and Josephine's go about their daily lives, do their thing (if they are Danish, I understand they are encouraged to really do their thing), and life goes on. The ebb and flow of governments is interesting, but it is only one small part of history, most of which takes place independent of the actions of some wanker sitting in a palace somewhere.
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Post by millring on Jun 7, 2016 15:55:16 GMT -5
I always confuse Toynbee, Santayana and Groucho. "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it." The quote is most likely due to George Santayana, and in its original form it read, 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' - George Santayana I always wondered if he said it before or after he attacked the Alamo. I thought Santana said, "Oye Como Va." Beat me to it. I hate you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 15:59:52 GMT -5
Well, History is an open game, but in my history the story isn't in the Fall of Rome/Byzantium but is an amazement that they lasted as long as they did, especially as the last several hundred years of each was maintained by smoke, mirrors, and the political usefulness of sham religion. For some reason (probably a combination of simplicity and laziness), we tell history in terms of large institutions. The truth of the matter is that it was probably decades or more before the average person living under Roman or Byzantine rule even knew they were gone. The average Joe's and Josephine's go about their daily lives, do their thing (if they are Danish, I understand they are encouraged to really do their thing), and life goes on. The ebb and flow of governments is interesting, but it is only one small part of history, most of which takes place independent of the actions of some wanker sitting in a palace somewhere. Maybe. Unless, of course, there is a large disruption such as the Russian revolution or the Nazis take over. Most people found out pretty quickly that there was new sheriff in town.
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Post by Marshall on Jun 9, 2016 7:14:29 GMT -5
He'd be the guy who does a little research before offering a sweeping opinion. He's already the guy biting his tongue in response to snotty remarks. My comment wasn't snotty. It was exschremely erudited. Gesundheit
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Post by millring on Jun 9, 2016 7:20:23 GMT -5
Do you think it's just a coincidence that Byzantium rhymes with chrysanthemum?
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