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Post by sidheguitarmichael on Aug 5, 2019 16:18:29 GMT -5
Just remember, the police are reactive. You'll be OK once they get there but others will die waiting for them to respond. I was surprised at the El Paso shooting because Texas is pretty much open carry but apparently the Walmart is a "Gun free zone", therefore a soft target. May your zone stay safe and if it isn't may you live long enough for the police to respond. Around here that would be at least 20 minutes. WalMart is not a "gun free zone." Open carry is legal in Texas, and WalMart does not post signs to keep guns out. It's internal WalMart policy that if someone does carry openly in the store, a manager may or may not ask to see their license - totally up to the individual manager. So much for that right wing bumper sticker. But don't worry, I'm sure you have plenty more. As a data point, there was at least one concealed carrier in the mall; an army vet with a license and a handgun. He elected to grab a bunch of kids from the play area and get out of the mall to safety--hardly a poor choice, in all.
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Post by brucemacneill on Aug 5, 2019 17:24:20 GMT -5
Just remember, the police are reactive. You'll be OK once they get there but others will die waiting for them to respond. I was surprised at the El Paso shooting because Texas is pretty much open carry but apparently the Walmart is a "Gun free zone", therefore a soft target. May your zone stay safe and if it isn't may you live long enough for the police to respond. Around here that would be at least 20 minutes. WalMart is not a "gun free zone." Open carry is legal in Texas, and WalMart does not post signs to keep guns out. It's internal WalMart policy that if someone does carry openly in the store, a manager may or may not ask to see their license - totally up to the individual manager. So much for that right wing bumper sticker. But don't worry, I'm sure you have plenty more. Are you sure about that? Supposedly there's new law that goes into effect Sept 1 allowing open carry after an emergency is declared. Googleing "Is El Paso walmart gun free" gives the Fox report that it is but I don't find any other mention of it. I'm not sure now. Again, need evidence but I can't find it. If Fox was wrong I'd expect to find a fact-check saying false and I don't even get that.
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Post by brucemacneill on Aug 5, 2019 17:30:32 GMT -5
Oh, I understand. We've discussed this before, not you but on the forum. You're conflating the thoughts of "Racist white people" with your own thought that Trump is a racist, which is not actually in evidence. You're doing guilt by association without the actual association part. That's the same as the collusion charge. You believe in the collusion charge although no evidence of collusion has been found. Trump's guilty because your accepted sources say he is. I'm waiting for evidence either of actual racism or actual collusion. I do that because I'm rational and not a victim of TDS. Racist white people have been inspired to violence by Trump. Time after time. But it's not his fault because, um, he's not really a racist? Geez, who knows why racists seem as attracted to Trump as moths are to a flame? Go figure, huh? I am reminded of the Onion headline, "Area man asks, 'Why do these homosexuals keep sucking my c**k?'" Poor, misunderstood Trump. Well, guess if that's all you have, I WIN!!!!!!!!!
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Aug 5, 2019 17:50:21 GMT -5
Racist white people have been inspired to violence by Trump. Time after time. But it's not his fault because, um, he's not really a racist? Geez, who knows why racists seem as attracted to Trump as moths are to a flame? Go figure, huh? I am reminded of the Onion headline, "Area man asks, 'Why do these homosexuals keep sucking my c**k?'" Poor, misunderstood Trump. Well, guess if that's all you have, I WIN!!!!!!!!! In your hermetically sealed, reality resistant world in which there is no evidence that Trump is a racist, I guess so. Enjoy your cookie.
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Post by brucemacneill on Aug 5, 2019 18:04:05 GMT -5
Well, guess if that's all you have, I WIN!!!!!!!!! In your hermetically sealed, reality resistant world in which there is no evidence that Trump is a racist, I guess so. Enjoy your cookie. Klondike bar, I think.
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Post by millring on Aug 5, 2019 18:15:23 GMT -5
Something I've noticed over 20 years of discussing, debating, arguing, learning, and conversing on the internet in forums and social media:
The longer the list of proofs, the less effective the argument.
And it usually works like this:
Long lists are provided as proof of a thesis on the belief that more data points make a stronger case. But they almost never do. Instead, (especially?) because of the dog-piling nature of long lists, there is almost always at least one weak point. The longer the list, the more weak points.
Conversely, I have noticed that one iron-clad point is not only the basic requirement to make a logical point....when that is what is given, it is most often not even responded to. The stronger the point, the less likely the response. Oh, it won't end the discussion/argument, but the discussion will continue as though the point was never made. I might even opine that this is most often the case.
But when a list of grievances is given, the weakest one is where the argument will then proceed. And that's actually not improper. If the point is weak, it probably should never have been given.
And that's been the case so often with the "Trump is a racist" thing. In lists like Don and Patrick and David and others have given there have invariably been instances that are, to my mind, clearly not racism. They might be references to nationality, or culture, or any number of other things. They might be interpretations of Trump comments that I neither infer the same things from, nor assume that their inference even makes sense.
And because there are so many (to me) obviously non-racist data points included in arguable ones, I am inclined to disbelieve the lists in their entirety. And I doubt I'm alone in this.
And curiously, it is not discus-able. As those (like Don and David) have said in their presentation of such lists -- "...this is not debatable" -- there isn't a chance that any of the data points can be argued because that very opening is saying quite literally that minds cannot be changed.
Right after the "they ought to go back to their own countries" comment came out, in a discussion here, one of the dependably leftward voices said (and I paraphrase because I'm too lazy to look up the thread for a quote), "I didn't see that as racist. More like an expression of nationalism."
That, to my mind, should have altered the direction of the conversation. It didn't.
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Aug 5, 2019 18:17:38 GMT -5
In your hermetically sealed, reality resistant world in which there is no evidence that Trump is a racist, I guess so. Enjoy your cookie. Klondike bar, I think. If you can believe that Trump is not a racist, you should have no problem eating ice cream and convincing yourself it is actually a cookie.
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Post by sidheguitarmichael on Aug 5, 2019 18:26:57 GMT -5
I guess I’d like to reiterate once again my intent on being as civil as possible to folks that have different views than I do, here and elsewhere, even as I defend my own views (and begin to state my experience and sources leading me to my current viewpoints; arrived at over many years of amateur study of the issue). More than anything, the ability to discuss policy—even seemingly irreconcilable policy viewpoints—in a civil manner is becoming a necessary skill to cultivate and model if we want to keep our society in one piece.
Consider this: the El Paso guy was reportedly a white supremacy dude and Trump fan, even as it comes out that the Dayton Ohio shooter was a leftist Antifa/satanist guy who was looking forward to voting for Elizabeth Warren, and wanted to abolish ICE.
Folks, we are already in the initial stages of an internal shooting war across political lines. That’s the reality.
Fortunately, we are a looooong ways away from any critical mass on this; now is a good time to treat the "other" side—whichever that may be—with a modicum of courtesy.
Lastly, it’s not my intention to condescend. I do believe that experience and education counts for something. I’ve read dozens of books on firearms use and policy; hundreds of essays and articles; many thousands of pages over decades from my time as an anti-gun youth to my current pro 2A stance. I’ve met and shared the music stage with kids who’ve survived a local school shooting and lost close friends and I’ve met a man who stopped a mass shooting (Andy Brown Fairchild AFB). I’ve trained under one of the top experts on Rapid Mass Murders (martial arts, not guns) with a large database of civilian shootings, and trained with other top people in the industry. I’ve rolled (grappled) in class as recently as last month with a guy who’s wife was in the ICE facility targeted by a leftist shooter in Tacoma a few weeks ago, and I’ve taught numerous members of the LGBT community the rudiments of firearms defense and the law.
I’ve talked to *dozens* of people who’ve successfully defended themselves and dependent others with firearms, and I’ve had gun control activists in my house for dinner. I’ve come close to being blown up by a supremacist, and given a high-profile target of local white supremacists training and a gun. I’ve seen the long-term effects that home invasion, abduction and murder has on lone survivors, and I’ve talked to the victims of violent process crime. Hell, I’m friends with the guy who coined "social/asocial, resource, and process violence" (Rory Miller) having grown up doing martial arts from middle school age with the guy who got him his first book deal.
I’m reasonably prepared for a conversation on this stuff, but I’m going to hold you all to calling me out if I’m ever rude in my efforts to make any points. I have no qualms about inflicting the comfortable with a cogent difference of opinion, but I’ll stop and quit the forum before I display a lack of respect for any person directly.
I hope that makes sense. I really am concerned with the current trajectory of our country, and I am interested in finding real-world solutions to mitigate conflict before it gets out of hand. Perhaps this isn’t the place. I’m good talking about Sobells or amplifying nylon strings too. Depends where the conversation goes, and the interest.
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Post by brucemacneill on Aug 5, 2019 18:44:57 GMT -5
www.lawenforcementtoday.com/el-paso-manifesto/This says the El Paso shooter's manifesto says he wasn't a Trump fan. Where did you get that he was? edit: Incidentally, I'm not questioning anything about your previous post other than that fact.
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Aug 5, 2019 19:02:08 GMT -5
www.lawenforcementtoday.com/el-paso-manifesto/This says the El Paso shooter's manifesto says he wasn't a Trump fan. Where did you get that he was? edit: Incidentally, I'm not questioning anything about your previous post other than that fact. He uses Trump’s language repeatedly in his manifesto. This dipshit didn’t come up with his slogans at meetings of his high school’s MENSA club. He claims he was radicalized pre-Trump? Trump has been a shout it from the rooftops racist, running for President since before this shithead got his drivers permit. The gaslighting is baked into the cake.
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Post by brucemacneill on Aug 5, 2019 19:10:57 GMT -5
www.lawenforcementtoday.com/el-paso-manifesto/This says the El Paso shooter's manifesto says he wasn't a Trump fan. Where did you get that he was? edit: Incidentally, I'm not questioning anything about your previous post other than that fact. He uses Trump’s language repeatedly in his manifesto. This dipshit didn’t come up with his slogans at meetings of his high school’s MENSA club. He claims he was radicalized pre-Trump? Trump has been a shout it from the rooftops racist, running for President since before this shithead got his drivers permit. The gaslighting is baked into the cake. Sorry you believe all that.
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Aug 5, 2019 19:37:04 GMT -5
He uses Trump’s language repeatedly in his manifesto. This dipshit didn’t come up with his slogans at meetings of his high school’s MENSA club. He claims he was radicalized pre-Trump? Trump has been a shout it from the rooftops racist, running for President since before this shithead got his drivers permit. The gaslighting is baked into the cake. Sorry you believe all that. Sorry that’s the best response you have. But not even remotely surprised.
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Post by sidheguitarmichael on Aug 5, 2019 20:01:31 GMT -5
www.lawenforcementtoday.com/el-paso-manifesto/This says the El Paso shooter's manifesto says he wasn't a Trump fan. Where did you get that he was? edit: Incidentally, I'm not questioning anything about your previous post other than that fact. Bruce, I could be wrong on that. TX LE have told me via PM that this new asshole used the New Zealand mosque shooter’s manifesto as a model, and that guy reportedly did praise Trump. A quick look around the net shows reports that el paso dirtbag had pro-Trump social media posts, but you know how initial media reports go. I’ve already got too much of other’s dark thoughts in my head from years of following this stuff, so I’m going to pass on reading any manifestos. I will gladly retract my statement on the DB being a Trump supporter until such time as any facts showing otherwise settle out with authority. I do believe that he was an anti-immigration, white nationalist, but I wasn’t thete.
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 5, 2019 20:08:39 GMT -5
"More than anything, the ability to discuss policy—even seemingly irreconcilable policy viewpoints—in a civil manner is becoming a necessary skill to cultivate and model if we want to keep our society in one piece."
Well amen to that. I'm always a little bewildered that anyone sees it otherwise.
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 5, 2019 20:23:44 GMT -5
(PS: the previous post was not meant to suggest that I have always been civil here. Alas, no. Aspirations and achievements don't always match.)
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Post by sidheguitarmichael on Aug 5, 2019 20:27:10 GMT -5
"More than anything, the ability to discuss policy—even seemingly irreconcilable policy viewpoints—in a civil manner is becoming a necessary skill to cultivate and model if we want to keep our society in one piece." Well amen to that. I'm always a little bewildered that anyone sees it otherwise. We are hard wired, as a species, for tribalism. I mean, it can be worked around, but it takes intention. As an aside, the head of the secret service’s threat assessment center just said the same thing that many in the know have said: these guys almost always announce their intentions in advance. www.newsmax.com/newsfront/ntac-secret-service-lina-alathari-el-paso/2019/08/05/id/927373/"Almost every attacker in a mass shooting incident communicated their intentions to others, whether online or in person, and that should have brought attention to them and made their actions "preventable," Dr. Lina Alathari, chief of the Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center, said Monday in response to deadly shootings that claimed several lives in El Paso, Texas, and in Dayton, Ohio, over the weekend."The Dayton DB sent ‘rape lists’ out to people he thought deserved such a fate, for pete’s sake. That sort of activity (in writing!) calls for a closer look, in my not so humble opinion. That’s almost certainly in the narrow part of the "narrowly defined criteria for ERPO," mentioned in a link many pages back. Nobody is ever surprised to find it was any of these guys, nobody, with the glaring, white buffalo exception of the Vegas guy. Pretty much everyone else was seen coming.
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 5, 2019 20:30:10 GMT -5
"We are hard wired, as a species, for tribalism. I mean, it can be worked around, but it takes intention."
Yeah. I'm by no means immune to it and getting past it requires effort.
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Post by theevan on Aug 5, 2019 20:42:25 GMT -5
(PS: the previous post was not meant to suggest that I have always been civil here. Alas, no. Aspirations and achievements don't always match.) Oh come on, Don. More than just about anybody you've been unfailingly civil around here.
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Post by sidheguitarmichael on Aug 5, 2019 20:42:42 GMT -5
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Post by aquaduct on Aug 5, 2019 20:43:43 GMT -5
Folks, we are already in the initial stages of an internal shooting war across political lines. That’s the reality. My view is somewhat different having spent time in the Swamp. I believe we are in the end stages of that internal shooting war. Obama represented, more than anything, the farthest left the country can go. Congress completed the pinnacle of the Administrative State in 1972 and then, sensing the advantage of no accountability, dropped any pretense of legislating for the comfortably long term role of administering the Administrative State. Think about it. What does Congress do these days? Primarily funds the government. And badly. Word to the wise, there's another Continuing Resolution/Government Shutdown on the horizon for October. As regular as clockwork these days. And they've reached the point where the Administrative State has been arbitrarily (not through Congress mind you) tasked with administrating the literally physically impossible. The casting of Trump was unbelievably serendipitous. No prior political experience, immune to the GIN, and no smarmy obfuscation. And he's known from the beginning where the weak spot is and how to attack it. It still ain't over until the fat lady sings, but the confrontation is locked and loaded. And even on the slim chance the Democrats can put something coherent together in time for 2020, it's too late. Once that happens it's anybody's guess how much chaos it will unleash. As a guy who's got a long background in regulation, law, and corporate compliance one thing I can say is that often the best way to turn a ship around is to sink it and start over. We're almost there. Time to stock up on popcorn. And my time in the Swamp colors my response to the belligerent and disrespectful. I don't have any problem agreeing to disagree. And I'm one of the only one's here that I can remember that has regularly changed his mind, acknowledged when I'm wrong or when I've inadvertently let my nasty side loose without meaning to. But I don't suffer jackasses very well at all. I personnally think you're a great guy. Hope I never leave you with any other impression. And I should probably apologize to Marty and Tamarack for keeping them busy in this charged political season.
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