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Post by Russell Letson on Apr 28, 2020 11:39:56 GMT -5
Immunity to a virus, whether via infection or vaccination, is not necessarily permanent, which is why cats and dogs get rabies shots periodically. I looked around for not-too-technical explanations and found this one from Time: time.com/5810454/coronavirus-immunity-reinfection/Then there are other complicating questions--asymptomatic carriers (as with FeLV); or the virus hiding out in some reservoir in the body and re-emerging later (chickenpox/shingles); or follow-on effects of the primary disease (post-polio syndrome). Even after we develop a vaccine or a decent set of treatment protocols, this virus looks like a particularly nasty bag of tricks. And if some virologists are right and it settles down to endemic status, we're in for the kind of periodic acute-outbreak pattern we see with the "normal" flu family of viruses.
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Post by millring on Apr 28, 2020 11:42:33 GMT -5
If it doesn't render immunity, doesn't that also imply, then, that a vaccine is equally impossible? Isn't that the way vaccines work?
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Post by james on Apr 28, 2020 13:09:47 GMT -5
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Post by Russell Letson on Apr 28, 2020 13:44:07 GMT -5
John, "immunity" is neither absolute nor necessarily permanent, as the piece James linked indicates. And in the case of pathogens that can mutate (as the flu does), a new strain requires a new vaccine. (Note also that we geezers get a special dose of the annual flue vaccine, presumably because our systems need an extra kick in the ass--not all immune systems are equal.) And since the coronavirus is novel, we don't yet know exactly what kind of virus we're dealing with. BTW, there is evidence that previous immunizations can help even with new strains--that we can build up a repertory of antigens/responses that help when the body encounters a novel variant. I suspect that this explains some of our failure to come down with flu over the years--we have faithfully gotten our annual shots, which might give us a bit of an edge. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190320110619.htm
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Post by millring on Apr 28, 2020 15:02:55 GMT -5
Exactly. So if infection doesn't render immunity, then seeking a vaccine is wasting time. "Vaccines produce their protective effect by inducing active immunity". No active immunity, no vaccine.
It's backwards to propose that a vaccine varies in effectiveness if the proposal from the onset is that no active immunity occurs upon COVID infection. No immunity, no vaccine. If some are acquiring immunity upon infection, that's a different proposal.
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Post by billhammond on Apr 28, 2020 15:35:30 GMT -5
Meanwhile ...
ROCHESTER, Minn. — Vice President Mike Pence chose not to wear a face mask Tuesday during a tour of the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota, an apparent violation of the world-renowned medical center's policy requiring them.
Video feeds show that Pence did not wear a mask when he met with a Mayo employee who has recovered from COVID-19 and is now donating plasma, even though everyone else in the room appeared to be wearing one. He was also maskless when he visited a lab where Mayo conducts coronavirus tests.
And Pence was the only participant not to wear a mask during a roundtable discussion on Mayo's coronavirus testing and research programs. All the other participants did, including Food and Drug Administration chief Stephen Hahn, top Mayo officials, Gov. Tim Walz and U.S. Rep. Jim Hagedorn.
Mayo tweeted that it had informed the vice president of its mask policy prior to his arrival. The tweet was later removed. Mayo officials did not immediately respond to a request for comment on why it was removed, or at whose request.
The vice president's office did not immediately respond to a request for comment on why Pence chose not to wear a mask.
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Post by Russell Letson on Apr 28, 2020 15:39:21 GMT -5
John, I really can't make out your argument here. Classical vaccines operate precisely by introducing an infectious agent (weakened or killed or a less-virulant relative of the pathogen) in order to trigger an immune response. I don't know what would distinguish a vaccine-induced immune response from one induced by the disease in the wild--except that the natural disease would be much more dangerous, and the vaccine's mimicry of the wild pathogen might not be complete enough to set off a sufficient immune response. ( On edit: I just looked quickly at a virology article on the Salk/Sabin vaccines that outlines some of the complexities of developing a vaccine: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3782271/)And again, as far as I can tell, no immunity is complete or absolute, either in a given individual or a population. Nor am I aware of any evidence that COVID infection does not trigger an immune response or confer some degree of resistance to later infection. One of the many things we don't know is what constitutes "getting over" the disease or whether the virus might hide somewhere and later reactivate (as chickenpox does) or whether, like some immune-system disorders (HIV-AIDS, FeLV), it operates partly by disabling the immune reaction. (Though it seems to kill some by overstimulating it.) And of course we have a vaccine for FeLV.
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Post by millring on Apr 28, 2020 15:49:52 GMT -5
This isn't rocket weaving. Try to imagine it isn't me commenting and maybe you'll get it.
The comment was: "I've read confusing and seemingly conflicting reports about whether those who recover from the virus acquire immunity."
And my response was that if those who recover from the virus do not acquire immunity, then pursuing a vaccine will not do us any good.
The comment wasn't "I've read confusing and seemingly conflicting reports about whether some who recover from the virus acquire immunity."
The comment was: "I've read confusing and seemingly conflicting reports about whether those who recover from the virus acquire immunity."
If those who recover do not thereby acquire immunity, then a vaccine will do no good because "Vaccines produce their protective effect by inducing active immunity"
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Post by james on Apr 28, 2020 17:20:34 GMT -5
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Post by jdd2 on Apr 28, 2020 19:25:33 GMT -5
Neither vaccines nor acquired immunity is manichean.
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COVID 19
Apr 28, 2020 20:53:43 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by TKennedy on Apr 28, 2020 20:53:43 GMT -5
Meanwhile ... ROCHESTER, Minn. — Vice President Mike Pence chose not to wear a face mask Tuesday during a tour of the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota, an apparent violation of the world-renowned medical center's policy requiring them. Video feeds show that Pence did not wear a mask when he met with a Mayo employee who has recovered from COVID-19 and is now donating plasma, even though everyone else in the room appeared to be wearing one. He was also maskless when he visited a lab where Mayo conducts coronavirus tests. And Pence was the only participant not to wear a mask during a roundtable discussion on Mayo's coronavirus testing and research programs. All the other participants did, including Food and Drug Administration chief Stephen Hahn, top Mayo officials, Gov. Tim Walz and U.S. Rep. Jim Hagedorn. Mayo tweeted that it had informed the vice president of its mask policy prior to his arrival. The tweet was later removed. Mayo officials did not immediately respond to a request for comment on why it was removed, or at whose request. The vice president's office did not immediately respond to a request for comment on why Pence chose not to wear a mask. The real reason is he thinks it will make him look weak or cowardly. Publicly I see many more women with masks than men. It just does not fit the macho image many men have of themselves. The fact that he tested negative so it is OK is laughable. The test could have been faulty or he could have picked it up the next day. Thumbs down to the Clinic for knuckling under on this one.
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COVID 19
Apr 28, 2020 21:52:25 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by amanajoe on Apr 28, 2020 21:52:25 GMT -5
Is it page 100 yet?
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COVID 19
Apr 28, 2020 21:52:53 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by amanajoe on Apr 28, 2020 21:52:53 GMT -5
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Post by AlanC on Apr 28, 2020 21:58:43 GMT -5
Let me try.
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Post by AlanC on Apr 28, 2020 21:59:09 GMT -5
Nope, shoot
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Post by sidheguitarmichael on Apr 28, 2020 23:21:31 GMT -5
Amateurs...
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Post by sidheguitarmichael on Apr 28, 2020 23:22:00 GMT -5
Damn, that would have been awesome, had it panned out.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Apr 28, 2020 23:42:07 GMT -5
Pence is a dipshit.
Mike
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Post by jdd2 on Apr 29, 2020 1:01:22 GMT -5
At 58,000 now, I wonder how many deaths there would have been with no lockdowns, and what the curve would look like now.
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COVID 19
Apr 29, 2020 4:45:46 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by aquaduct on Apr 29, 2020 4:45:46 GMT -5
At 58,000 now, I wonder how many deaths there would have been with no lockdowns, and what the curve would look like now. Probably just about what it is now. Told y'all that a month and a half ago.
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