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Post by millring on Apr 26, 2024 5:51:23 GMT -5
Are your sympathies with the protestors? Do you think they're no big deal? Do you feel the impulse to join them? Do they raise a nostalgic sense of the Vietnam era protests, or do you see them as essentially different? How informed do you think they are? How spontaneous do you think they are? Why are they on university campuses?
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Post by Cornflake on Apr 26, 2024 7:30:27 GMT -5
Since you asked, I have mixed emotions. The protestors are not all alike.
I have no sympathy with the protestors at Columbia who were chanting "from the river to the sea" loudly enough to be heard by Jewish students in class, or with the ones who have had ample opportunity to demonstrate but won't stop being disruptive, or with those who camp out and refuse to leave. I feel anger towards the protestors who have roughed up Jewish students. Many protestors should be disciplined and in some cases expelled.
I have positive feelings towards the protestors who are trying to voice their dismay over Netanyahu's disregard for the lives of Palestinian noncombatants. I feel that dismay as well. And I'm irked by most critics of the protestors. At least the protestors are doing something about the continued killing. Mostly they're doing it peacefully, albeit often with the clumsiness to be expected of twenty-year-olds. WTF have their self-righteous critics done about the excessive killing?
I think Hamas and its allies are exploiting many well motivated students. I think Hamas and its allies are exploiting the students' critics. They want us to be at each other's throats, just as they want to see blood keep flowing in Gaza.
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Post by james on Apr 26, 2024 7:52:14 GMT -5
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protests
Apr 26, 2024 8:51:47 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by millring on Apr 26, 2024 8:51:47 GMT -5
I didn't ask them. I asked you.
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Post by Cornflake on Apr 26, 2024 9:40:42 GMT -5
That's spot-on, James.
"If you cannot grieve for both peoples, then you do not understand."
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Post by Shannon on Apr 26, 2024 10:11:37 GMT -5
I admittedly more than lean pro-Israel, so keep my bias in mind.
I believe folks have the right to protest. I think pro-Hamas protestors are wrong, but should be allowed to protest as long as they do so within the bounds of law and civility. I think many of the college protests have crossed that line and should be disbanded.
I know that one could protest in favor of mercy for innocent and non-combatant Palestinians without being pro-Hamas. There are nuances to the situation.
I have no doubt that there are agitators involved. When is that not the case?
I think Ilhan Omar's daughter is full of it, and that she comes by it naturally.
I'm too young to remember much about Viet Nam, so I can't comment on similarities.
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Post by coachdoc on Apr 26, 2024 10:14:58 GMT -5
Major difference between now and Vietnam is we were being drafted to fight over there.
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Post by Russell Letson on Apr 26, 2024 10:38:13 GMT -5
It's worth unpicking/unpacking exactly what a given protest (or, better yet, a given individual protester) is pro or anti. For example, is "pro-Palestinian" the same as "pro-Hamas"? And it's certainly easy to distinguish "pro-Israel" from "pro-Netanyahu" or "pro-settler"--Zionism does not and never has come in just one flavor.
The more granular the better. Who, exactly, is being killed or dispossessed, by whom, and under what circumstances? But then, nuance and "it depends" are not prominent features of collective behavior.
As far as campus protests go, I recall finding much of what my near-contemporaries got up to in the late 1960s foolish or ineffective, even when I shared some of their analyses of what we were up to in Viet Nam. And even then I found it difficult to exactly locate the lines that were foolish or counter-productive to cross. Certainly deliberately or naively getting various authorities to respond with disproportionate violence was tricky and not guaranteed to be seen sympathetically. (I suspect there was plenty of cheering around Carbondale at the prospect of state cops busting heads. There was also a willingness to do a bit of volunteer head-busting among our redder-necked neighbors.)
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Post by james on Apr 26, 2024 10:50:28 GMT -5
I didn't ask them. I asked you. As you can imagine, I am crestfallen to have disappointed you.
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Post by Keith Rockerbob Lewis on Apr 26, 2024 11:10:05 GMT -5
I avoid any and all news from any source. None of it is good and I can't change anything. People will do what they have done throughout recorded history. Kill each other for one reason or another. We have a lot of that domestically. I've read the history so I don't need to read the news. I also avoid all religion, frequently cited as the cause for killing other people. I don't want to get any of that on me.
I admit it. I have given up on society. I gave up on it when I read history and saw the cycles. History makes it very clear the same things will continue over and over. Names and places change but the behavior remains. I hide in my subterranean toy rooms and play with my toys. I go out for very few things.
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Post by martinfever on Apr 26, 2024 12:32:31 GMT -5
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Post by Marshall on Apr 26, 2024 14:00:34 GMT -5
I'm with Shannon and coachdoc.
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,901
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Post by Dub on Apr 26, 2024 14:52:33 GMT -5
I grew up with lots of Jewish friends and classmates. I lived in several Jewish neighborhoods in Chicago where Jewish friends from college put me up until I found a place. I’ve sat shiva with Jewish friends. I feel very close to Jewish people in general.
I’ve known lots of Arabs and have had many middle eastern friends. My youngest daughter’s godfather is Palestinian, her godmother is Syrian. The Mother mosque of North America is in Cedar Rapids so we encounter many Muslims here. As a community, we are proud of that.
None of these people feel like “other” to me.
When any of the peoples of my friends are hurt, I feel a kind of hurt too. I want all their families to be prosperous and happy.
I strongly support the right of protest. I hate the practice of encouraging hate.
I think the Mo Husseini piece that James linked is spot on. It is clear and detailed. My views seem to align with his. I’ve decided to “follow” him on Medium.
I wish there was something of significance I could do.
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Post by millring on Apr 26, 2024 15:48:10 GMT -5
mo-husseini.medium.com/hmmm-do-i-need-a-title-129b27bed5f0 The language is as juvenile as the sentiment and the very thinly veiled moral equivalencies. Israel did not start the war. The war. War. Hamas did. And as to the innocence of the Palestinian people, they support Hamas in numbers the likes of which Americans haven't seen since Reagan won in a landslide (and even then, the popular vote wasn't as sharply divided as the Palestinian support of Hamas). Hamas attacked Israel. And if we'd been shown the atrocities that they committed in the attack, just maybe we'd understand a will to retaliate. But Israel isn't retaliating. It's war. They're fighting for their very existence against a foe that has declared it's desire to see that that not happen. And the American government is "conflicted". And the idea that because the Israeli people elected Netanyahu they had it coming is repulsive. I absolutely love this song. Musically, it really does it for me. And it's overall optimistic theme I like. youtu.be/eFPixn6uRpk?si=fg70rLM4o9_MlMXF But it's got this line (the ultimate punchline of the whole song) "We try to find peace through war, although it's never worked before". Of course it's worked before. It's not what we want. But of course it's worked before. WWII was won and Hitler was defeated. Stopped. The holocaust was stopped. In its tracks. Stopped. Through war. Modern day journalists probably cringe at the WWII news reports that supported the war effort. I have trouble imagining that we shouldn't have bombed Germany or that the nightly news would be scolding us every time we did. But the Allies won the war. And now the irony is that the very victims over which -- in part -- WWII was fought, are now victims again of a world that is "conflicted" over a Palestinian will -- and war -- to wipe them off of the map from the river to the sea. They aren't equivocating. The majority of the Palestinian people have voted. They're not equivocating. But the American press and its Democratic Party leadership is "conflicted" and has the audacity to scold Israel "How DARE you try to win a war declared against you!" And irony piled on irony....the very ones so "conflicted" over Israel's right to exist are the ones who have characterized Trump as Hitler -- and they mean it.
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,901
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Post by Dub on Apr 26, 2024 15:55:55 GMT -5
mo-husseini.medium.com/hmmm-do-i-need-a-title-129b27bed5f0 The language is as juvenile as the sentiment and the very thinly veiled moral equivalencies. Israel did not start the war. The war. War. Hamas did. We read with different eyes and understand from different foundations.
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Post by Cornflake on Apr 26, 2024 17:35:33 GMT -5
"I wish there was something of significance I could do."
Me too.
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Post by theevan on Apr 27, 2024 6:33:09 GMT -5
I reluctantly read Mo's screed on the conflict. It leaves me conflicted.
His #3, the two-state solution, is what everybody wants. Everybody, that is, except Israel and Palestine. So the solution is a non-solution because it's not going to happen.
If I put on my book-of-Revelation-end-times hat I'm thinking "oh goody! it's all going down now and Jesus is coming back."
I wonder what might happen if all players everywhere just took their hands off and quit involving themselves/supporting the sides? Y'all tend to your own business (yes, that includes Ukraine, Taiwan and so on) and let the chips fall where they may.
Speaking of Ukraine, why the hell are we fighting a proxy war with Russia? We get exercised about Iran's various proxies and we're possibly the biggest proxy player out there? So much hypocrisy.
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Post by John B on Apr 27, 2024 9:21:36 GMT -5
I reluctantly read Mo's screed on the conflict. It leaves me conflicted. His #3, the two-state solution, is what everybody wants. Everybody, that is, except Israel and Palestine. So the solution is a non-solution because it's not going to happen. If I put on my book-of-Revelation-end-times hat I'm thinking "oh goody! it's all going down now and Jesus is coming back." I wonder what might happen if all players everywhere just took their hands off and quit involving themselves/supporting the sides? Y'all tend to your own business (yes, that includes Ukraine, Taiwan and so on) and let the chips fall where they may. Speaking of Ukraine, why the hell are we fighting a proxy war with Russia? We get exercised about Iran's various proxies and we're possibly the biggest proxy player out there? So much hypocrisy. If you believe that by supporting Ukraine you are supporting democracy and fighting against tyranny, and that Iran is fighting democracy and spreading tyranny, there is no hypocrisy.
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Post by theevan on Apr 27, 2024 10:23:39 GMT -5
I reluctantly read Mo's screed on the conflict. It leaves me conflicted. His #3, the two-state solution, is what everybody wants. Everybody, that is, except Israel and Palestine. So the solution is a non-solution because it's not going to happen. If I put on my book-of-Revelation-end-times hat I'm thinking "oh goody! it's all going down now and Jesus is coming back." I wonder what might happen if all players everywhere just took their hands off and quit involving themselves/supporting the sides? Y'all tend to your own business (yes, that includes Ukraine, Taiwan and so on) and let the chips fall where they may. Speaking of Ukraine, why the hell are we fighting a proxy war with Russia? We get exercised about Iran's various proxies and we're possibly the biggest proxy player out there? So much hypocrisy. If you believe that by supporting Ukraine you are supporting democracy and fighting against tyranny, and that Iran is fighting democracy and spreading tyranny, there is no hypocrisy. There two Evans here. One agrees. The other, well. That other Evan says that using Ukrainians to fight a proxy with Russia is very bad idea. Let's be clear. Ukraine will not defeat Russia. Russia will not lose. They won't allow it. It's an ugly reality, but I think it's reality. That Evan says we cut our losses and get out. And get out of our level of involvement in world affairs. Then there's this Evan.
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Post by millring on Apr 28, 2024 9:04:33 GMT -5
and that Iran is fighting democracy and spreading tyranny, there is no hypocrisy. Then why the hand-wringing over supporting Israel? Netanyahu's government was democratically elected. And yet, those who are "conflicted" over Israel and therefore are supporting (or sympathetic for) Hamas are certainly NOT concerned about the survival of democracy. They appear to be ideologues who extrapolate American concepts of "conservative" and "progressive" , thereby hate Netanyahu, and don't believe Israel has the right to wage a war that was declared against them by a democratically elected Hamas who represents the very Palestinian people for whom those progressive Americans feel their ONLY sympathies.
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