The perils Israel faces

[Cornflake]

I don't see any need to assess culpability for the past. It's past. Today's reality is that either one side needs to annihilate the other or they need to find a way to coexist.

[Marshall]

Jun 19, 2024 12:41:55 GMT -5 millring said:

And Israel is the one blocking the two-state solution?

Good point there. Hamas has no serious interest in a ceasefire other than to reinforce their position. And Iran wants Israel and the USA/Western world out of the Mid-east.

It’s going to get uglier.

[RickW]

Jun 19, 2024 13:35:55 GMT -5 Cornflake said:

I don't see any need to assess culpability for the past. It's past. Today's reality is that either one side needs to annihilate the other or they need to find a way to coexist.

Well, Don, for the only two groups that matter, the past is everything, because otherwise they’d all be coexisting already.

[Cornflake]

Rick, I disagree. From what I've read it appears that there are significant constituencies in both groups who see the need for a two-state solution, which would necessarily mean that neither group gets everything it wants. They're not running things at the moment. We should put our weight behind them.

[RickW]

Jun 19, 2024 17:34:45 GMT -5 Cornflake said:

Rick, I disagree. From what I've read it appears that there are significant constituencies in both groups who see the need for a two-state solution, which would necessarily mean that neither group gets everything it wants. They're not running things at the moment. We should put our weight behind them.

I’m sure there are. I doubt that most Palestinians were that much in favour of Hamas being in charge, or loving the other militant groups living all over Gaza. But those folks were there, and will continue to be there, and will continue to get weapons from Iran and elsewhere. Did the US manage to get rid of the Taliban? No, and I doubt very much whether any US soldier is going to have boots on the ground in gaza.

I’m sorry, I shouldn’t be such a pessimist, but I really don’t see a viable, peaceful solution. Everyone can hope, everyone can try to come up with a workable framework, they have to try.

[epaul]

Well, if Israel obliterates Gaza, leaving nothing but rubble, that would remove the major stumbling block to establishing the borders of the two states. It's impossible to link Gaza to the West Bank without slicing Israel into two separate pieces, and that won't fly, and is too stupid to even think of flying.

But, with no Gaza to worry about, the territory can be divided north and south into two equal sections, equal ocean front for all, with Jerusalem falling safely within the Israel south half (and leaving the Palestinian north half as a buffer between Israel and crazy Hezbollah in Lebanon.

(note, most Palestinians are Sunni while Iran's toy boys in Lebanon are Shite. The buffer could work, and if not, back to war.)

[Marshall]

Nobody is giving up Jerusalem. Clinton found that out.

And I expect the north controls the water supply for the south. And we can imagine what water wars would ensue.

[Cornflake]

I guess I see more cause for optimism than you guys do. Most people want peace. There are strong incentives on both sides to compromise. That doesn't mean it'll happen but, as Rick says, we have to try.

[epaul]

Crap, all the fresh water is in the the north. Back to the drawing board.

[aquaduct]

Boy, makes me miss the Trump days when Israel was honored, and Iran was broke.

I wonder whatever happened to that.

[Marshall]

And Putin owned Europe.

But you're right, Peter; at least partially. I gotta figure Hamas has planed for something like this for a long while. They'd do it no matter who was POTUS. But they need Iran's backing. And, though I'm pretty sure Iran would still be poking Israel with it's proxies, it would be a different playing field.

Would Trump stop Putin? Or would Putin play him like a fiddle? Putin is forming alliances with Iran, China, North Korea, and anybody that is anti-West.

It's a dicey world.

[aquaduct]

Jun 19, 2024 23:01:18 GMT -5 Marshall said:

And Putin owned Europe.

But you're right, Peter; at least partially. I gotta figure Hamas has planed for something like this for a long while. They'd do it no matter who was POTUS. But they need Iran's backing. And, though I'm pretty sure Iran would still be poking Israel with it's proxies, it would be a different playing field.

Would Trump stop Putin? Or would Putin play him like a fiddle? Putin is forming alliances with Iran, China, North Korea, and anybody that is anti-West.

It's a dicey world.

Yeah, and come to think of it, Russia didn't have the balls to go into Ukraine either under Trump.

Of course, Ukraine corruption was under control too.

I just keep missing the Trump presidency days.

[epaul]

I miss Eisenhower. I had the coolest bike, a two-speed Schwinn.

[Marshall]

They didn’t have to go into Ukraine under Trump. Trump was going to give Putin Ukraine and a chunk of Europe too.

[aquaduct]

Jun 20, 2024 11:00:02 GMT -5 Marshall said:

They didn’t have to go into Ukraine under Trump. Trump was going to give Putin Ukraine and a chunk of Europe too.

Prove it.

[Marshall]

I’ll make you some pudding.

Trump has said as recently as last week, he wouldn’t give Ukraine the 61 bil. Without that Ukraine would fold under Putin’s onslaught.

And he has threatened many times to pull out of NATO. So, that would leave Europe wide open to Russian dominance.

[aquaduct]

Jun 20, 2024 11:51:35 GMT -5 Marshall said:

I’ll make you some pudding.

Trump has said as recently as last week, he wouldn’t give Ukraine the 61 bil. Without that Ukraine would fold under Putin’s onslaught.

And he has threatened many times to pull out of NATO. So, that would leave Europe wide open to Russian dominance.

Putin didn't have the balls to even attempt the assault on Ukraine until Trump was well out of office and Biden had already established how much of a doofus he was with his botched Afghanistan pull out.

Trump would have never needed to send anybody anything.

[david]

Jun 19, 2024 21:26:15 GMT -5 aquaduct said:

Boy, makes me miss the Trump days when Israel was honored, and Iran was broke.

I wonder whatever happened to that.

Here is another perspective:

“Here's the facts. When Donald Trump came into office, Iran was over a year from being able to achieve a nuclear weapon. By the time President Trump left office, that breakout time had dropped to months. When President Trump came to office, proxies of Iran were strong. When he left office, they were just as strong, if not stronger. This idea that Iran stopped sending money to Hezbollah during Trump's presidency is just wrong. $700 million was the annual amount of support delivered from Iran in the middle of Trump's presidency; [and] that's what was being delivered at the end of his presidency. There were no attacks on US forces in Iraq when Donald Trump became president. From 2019 to 2020, attacks on US forces in Iraq increased by 400%. It got so bad that Secretary Pompeo started to close down the embassy in Baghdad because it had become so dangerous. Attacks on US forces raised to epidemic levels from the beginning of Trump's presidency to the end. The anti-Iran coalition wasn't strengthened, it was shattered. We had Russia and China on board with the JCPOA. By the end of the Trump presidency, Europe wasn't supporting our Trump politics, our Iran policy, they were undermining it.”

www.murphy.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/murphy-president-trumps-policy-towards-iran-was-a-disaster

[Marshall]

Jun 20, 2024 14:02:10 GMT -5 aquaduct said:

Jun 20, 2024 11:51:35 GMT -5 Marshall said:

I’ll make you some pudding.

Trump has said as recently as last week, he wouldn’t give Ukraine the 61 bil. Without that Ukraine would fold under Putin’s onslaught.

And he has threatened many times to pull out of NATO. So, that would leave Europe wide open to Russian dominance.

Putin didn't have the balls to even attempt the assault on Ukraine until Trump was well out of office and Biden had already established how much of a doofus he was with his botched Afghanistan pull out.

Trump would have never needed to send anybody anything.

Well, I think you're dreaming there. But have a nice day.

[TKennedy]

Nothing new under the sun eh?  Just change a few words and countries -