Well?

[aquaduct]

Jul 6, 2024 17:18:37 GMT -5 howard lee said:

Peter, I express my feelings here, and you deny them? I hope your vision of a great new America works out well for everyone.

Obviously, each of us has his own perspective on what has been going on in our country, contingent on how we have been imprinted by our upbringings and experience. When those perspectives differ, we each hang on adamantly to our points of view and so far, I have seen no argument from any perspective that would change the view of a differing perspective, or change my view. It's the main reason I rarely jump into these political threads. Plus, I am a Moderator, so there's that, too.

And your feelings included this description of me:

"I understand why the people in his base support him—his morals and actions are in lockstep with their own. Being like Trump excites them and makes them feel less significant in a world they can't understand. Of course, it's also much easier for those people to let someone else think for them and tell them where they stand on important issues, rather than educating themselves and forming their own opinions and thoughts. Kind of like what happened to ordinary citizens in Germany in the 1930s."

Which is certainly not true.

Which is why I provided the view from the other side of the country.

That's all.

[howard lee]

Well, I am sorry if that hurt your feelings, and gratified to know that you don't fit the mold. Trimming a few bristles off my own paint brush.

[aquaduct]

Jul 6, 2024 17:25:18 GMT -5 John B said:

Jul 6, 2024 16:35:58 GMT -5 millring said:

What are you talking about? You are exceptional in your willingness to congratulate Peter on the latest ruling about the regulative state, but you certainly realize that that state is entirely progressive in its philosophical undergirding.

Conservative philosophy is at its core all about limiting government. Progressive philosophy is all about expanding government. Which philosophy do you really think would lead to fascism?

Just because I congratulate Peter on the limitations of Chevron doesn't mean I think an administrative function isn't necessary. Especially when Congress abdigates its responsibility to come up with rules for how to execute the laws they pass. Administrative function keeps gas flowing in the pumps, food being as safe as it is, etc. When there is profit in cutting corners, people, companies, whoever will prioritize profit over doing the right thing if (1) they don't think they're going to get caught and/or (2) any penalties for not doing the right thing are ineffective.

You can argue about what "the right thing" is. You can argue about how much regulation is appropriate or needed. But deciding that no regulation of any kind is needed, or should be enforced, is bullshit (edited after the fact: or if not bullshit at least it's not feasible for a functioning society). Especially when it comes to the IRS and how much funding is needed in order to make sure honest Americans aren't being taken advantage of.

If "the right" followed any sort of conservative philosophy you might have a point. And please, please point to an actual conservative in government. The party of Trump is all about forcing their beliefs on everyone else and punishing anyone who disagrees.


And further, the best protection against fascism is at least TWO functioning political parties to guard against the excesses of the other. Either side is capable of fascism of some sort.

1) Nobody is arguing for no regulation, just that it needs to be properly structured and authorized by Congress first. At this point no one's real sure exactly how much will be affected but it's pretty certain there might be a lot of agencies within the government that find themselves with nothing to do and bureaucrats might find themselves suddenly unemployed for the first time in modern history. It is certain to at least focus the operations of government and force Congress to start legislating for their paychecks.

2) Not one but 3 conservatives in government- Justices Thomas, Alito, and Gorsuch.

[John B]

Jul 6, 2024 20:11:44 GMT -5 aquaduct said:

Jul 6, 2024 17:25:18 GMT -5 John B said:

Just because I congratulate Peter on the limitations of Chevron doesn't mean I think an administrative function isn't necessary. Especially when Congress abdigates its responsibility to come up with rules for how to execute the laws they pass. Administrative function keeps gas flowing in the pumps, food being as safe as it is, etc. When there is profit in cutting corners, people, companies, whoever will prioritize profit over doing the right thing if (1) they don't think they're going to get caught and/or (2) any penalties for not doing the right thing are ineffective.

You can argue about what "the right thing" is. You can argue about how much regulation is appropriate or needed. But deciding that no regulation of any kind is needed, or should be enforced, is bullshit (edited after the fact: or if not bullshit at least it's not feasible for a functioning society). Especially when it comes to the IRS and how much funding is needed in order to make sure honest Americans aren't being taken advantage of.

If "the right" followed any sort of conservative philosophy you might have a point. And please, please point to an actual conservative in government. The party of Trump is all about forcing their beliefs on everyone else and punishing anyone who disagrees.


And further, the best protection against fascism is at least TWO functioning political parties to guard against the excesses of the other. Either side is capable of fascism of some sort.

1) Nobody is arguing for no regulation, just that it needs to be properly structured and authorized by Congress first. At this point no one's real sure exactly how much will be affected but it's pretty certain there might be a lot of agencies within the government that find themselves with nothing to do and bureaucrats might find themselves suddenly unemployed for the first time in modern history. It is certain to at least focus the operations of government and force Congress to start legislating for their paychecks.

2) Not one but 3 conservatives in government- Justices Thomas, Alito, and Gorsuch.

1) Actually, there are people who are arguing for no regulation, or just starving agencies so no existing regulations can be enforced.

2) I'll keep my thoughts on those three liars to myself.

[james]

Meanwhile in North Carolina, another normal one.

[aquaduct]

Jul 6, 2024 20:26:39 GMT -5 John B said:

Jul 6, 2024 20:11:44 GMT -5 aquaduct said:

1) Nobody is arguing for no regulation, just that it needs to be properly structured and authorized by Congress first. At this point no one's real sure exactly how much will be affected but it's pretty certain there might be a lot of agencies within the government that find themselves with nothing to do and bureaucrats might find themselves suddenly unemployed for the first time in modern history. It is certain to at least focus the operations of government and force Congress to start legislating for their paychecks.

2) Not one but 3 conservatives in government- Justices Thomas, Alito, and Gorsuch.

1) Actually, there are people who are arguing for no regulation, or just starving agencies so no existing regulations can be enforced.

2) I'll keep my thoughts on those three liars to myself.

There will always be people who argue for no regulation. There will always be people who argue for no government at all.

There are also people who argue that the moon landing was faked and the twin towers were blown up by the government.

The fact is that there was already a decent amount of properly constituted government before Chevron that will still be there.

I heard somewhere that under Reagan the Code of Federal Regulations ran to 5000 pages. Today it's 385,000 pages. Odds are it will end up closer to 5000 again. But it'll still be a nice fat book.

[epaul]

Reasonable take.

[majorminor]

I sort of figured Joe would be stepping aside this week, but looks like he is digging in and doubling down. It will be interesting to see if the media shifts from the current "for the good of the country or we are doomed" hand-wringing narrative to "nothing to see here".

[Cornflake]

"It will be interesting to see if the media shifts from the current 'for the good of the country or we are doomed' hand-wringing narrative to 'nothing to see here'."

That seems likely. The current resistance to Biden's candidacy is a news story. If the resistance doesn't stop him and people resign themselves to his candidacy, there won't be much of a news story.

[Marshall]

It’s interesting and mildly entertaining to watch D pundits dance around this issue. For once, the Ds are sucking the air out of media attention.

My big worry about a return to Trumpism is what will happen to Ukraine. Trump seems to be ready to confront China and Iran. (All things that should be done in some form). But I don’t like his coziness with Putin. In fact I greatly don’t like that.

But it might be time to reevaluate Post WWII alignments. Looks like Europe would get cut loose much more on their own. On the surface, I don’t like that. But the days of the US defending the free world probably need to be reevaluated.

[Marshall]

Oh, and the UK and France have gone more “left” in their elections. How will that affect our relationships if Mr T gets in again.

[Cornflake]

"But it might be time to reevaluate Post WWII alignments. Looks like Europe would get cut loose much more on their own. On the surface, I don’t like that. But the days of the US defending the free world probably need to be reevaluated."

I'm not opposed to reevaluating it. But a major reason why we became Europe's protector is that we're the country with scads of nukes. That's a big deterrent to potential aggressors.

[epaul]

Well, if in the final month or so it looks like Trump has a pretty good lead, I hope that in that in that final month Biden sends a shitload of long-range missiles to Ukraine, enough to last a good while. This business that Putin can blast Ukrainian cities with missiles he gets from North Korea and Iran but it is somehow against our rules of war to allow Ukraine to send a couple fat ones back at Moscow is a wrong of the highest order.

Fuck Putin. If he sends another batch of missiles into the heart of Kiev, give Ukraine the means to drop a load on the heart of Moscow. If you want to play, you got to pay.




This war has to end.

Ukraine will never, ever, get the Crimea back. It just ain't happening. That is hard cold reality. So, if something is already gone, give it away in a deal. Russia gets title to Crimea and a slice of some eastern territory that wasn't happy being part of Ukraine anyway. Putin gets enough to tell the home folks he got all he ever wanted in the first place. Then sign up Ukraine in NATO to guarantee its future security. And let that nation start to recover and rebuild.



Or toss NATO and create a new Euro-Pact deal, one that includes Russia this time; a deal that codifies all the current European boundaries and backs the deal with joint military action against any invading army that breaks the deal. True, Russia is the rat in the hen house, but any European security deal that leaves Russia out in the cold as the enemy to be on guard against guarantees that that will continue to be the deal going forward into perpetuity.

Flip the Script. Sign the paranoid bastards into a joint Euro-Pact deal.

[Cornflake]

James Carville thinks Biden will withdraw.

"Mark my words: Joe Biden is going to be out of the 2024 presidential race. Whether he is ready to admit it or not. His pleas on Monday to congressional Democrats for support will not unite the party behind him. Mr. Biden says he’s staying in the race, but it’s only a matter of time before Democratic pressure and public and private polling lead him to exit the race. The jig is up, and the sooner Mr. Biden and Democratic leaders accept this, the better. We need to move forward."

Beats me. Biden insists he won't withdraw but that's what he has to say even if he's considering it. Where did I put my crystal ball?

[epaul]

The decision will be made by the polls.

And there will be ten thousand of them done over the next ten days.



I hope I get called: Gretchen Whitmer

( I could so get used to her.)

[majorminor]

Ah this is mildly interesting.

From the ABC interview transcript when Biden was asked how he would feel if he lost to Trump in the upcoming election: “I'll feel as long as I gave it my all and I did the goodest job as I know I can do, that's what this is about,”

From an article this morning regarding Jon Stewarts commentary about this issue "I'll feel as long as I gave it my all, and I did as good a job as I know I can do, that's what this is about," Biden said.
www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/jon-stewart-is-afraid-biden-doesn-t-realize-what-s-at-stake-and-that-there-are-no-participation-trophies-in-endgame-democracy/ar-BB1pEUsz?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=f51af2e4c80c456a8492081f23f93c6b&ei=14

[coachdoc]

Gretchen is marvelous, but now is not the time to push for a woman. Do not dilute the dump Trump message.

[epaul]

What I want is Gretchen. What I get will either be Biden or Harris. Or Biden then Harris. That's it. There are no other D's with a snowball's chance in Arizona. That's a fact, Jack.

If not Biden, then it's Harris. She is the sitting VP. She is leading in the "replace Joe" polls. She checks every box the Democratic party has to check. It would be political suicide for the Democratic party to pass up a woman of color who is the sitting VP and checks every box in favor of a white male or white female with less experience and lower poll numbers. The Democratic party has done dumb stuff, but it isn't that dumb.

[millring]

"end game democracy"

Yeah, that's kinda why I still believe that 2020 was a "rescued" election.

The fear is over the top. The very party most guilty of comprising the degree to which we are a democracy are scared that the enemy will take away their appointed, insider hegemony .

[majorminor]

Jul 9, 2024 14:41:40 GMT -5 millring said:

"end game democracy"

Yeah, that's kinda why I still believe that 2020 was a "rescued" election.

The fear is over the top. The very party most guilty of comprising the degree to which we are a democracy are scared that the enemy will take away their appointed, insider hegemony .

Yabbut.....if you can rig the election why worry?