Tomatoes

[epaul]

Picking a pail every other day. One plant has started to grow out of the greenhouse, escaping through the vent. It will be a 20 foot vine by the end of August.

[Cornflake]

I'm impressed. Envious too. "Ain't nothin' in the world that I like better than bacon & lettuce & homegrown tomatoes." - Guy Clark

[TKennedy]

Must be a good year. Every morning I check mine are growing exponentially. It’s frightening. I am adding more support struts daily.

[Cosmic Wonder]

Our tomatoes are scraggly shadow of what you guys are posting. We have one tomato that is orange and that’s the closest we are to harvesting any. On the other hand, our blueberries and raspberries have been producing like gang busters, providing copious quantities of luchious fruit for pancakes, scones, etc.

Mike

[epaul]

Why are my photos so darn small? They do get bigger if I click on them. Do they get bigger if you folks click on them.

But, still, they are screwy photos. I take them with my phone then download them to my computer. That's normal, right? Why are they so small? They didn't use to be.

[John B]

Jul 28, 2024 22:31:22 GMT -5 epaul said:

Why are my photos so darn small? They do get bigger if I click on them. Do they get bigger if you folks click on them.

But, still, they are screwy photos. I take them with my phone then download them to my computer. That's normal, right? Why are they so small? They didn't use to be.

Yes, they are small. But if I click they are bigger, like this. I click on your picture, then click "share" and then click on the "direct link" button to get a link to share via a picture.

[Rob Hanesworth]

Jul 28, 2024 22:31:22 GMT -5 epaul said:

Why are my photos so darn small? They do get bigger if I click on them. Do they get bigger if you folks click on them.

But, still, they are screwy photos. I take them with my phone then download them to my computer. That's normal, right? Why are they so small? They didn't use to be.

🎶 It's a small world, after all.🎶

[Tamarack]

Perhaps, ePaul, you can show me the error of my ways. My tomato plants are in a raised bed. Each spring I work in some humus and cow manure. Last year and so far this year, each plant has only yielded three or four tomatoes. The single cherry tomato plant has only yielded about a dozen nearly tasteless dime-sized tomatoes. Most years I get abundant foilage, this year the plants are growing, but slowly.

I have been planting started plants from the local garden center. This year I planted larger plants later in the spring, with dense roots within the containers (I separated the roots as best as possible before planting). Would I have better luck with growing tomatoes from seed?

[epaul]

Do you by any chance play your banjo around them? That will just about wipe them out right there. Other than that, I only have general guesses to offer.

In a garden with good drainage (raised bed checks that), all a tomato plant should need to thrive is at least a half day of good sun (full is best), warm days, and water. Given your raised bed and the warm summer, the only variable I listed that I can imagine being missing from your raised tomato bed is enough sun. But, if you got abundant foliage in the paste, your bed must be in a good spot.

So...

Are your plants growing slowly but otherwise look blocky and healthy?

Or are they growing slowly and look whimpy and scrawny with leaves that don't have a nice solid dark green color (either general yellowing of entire leaf or leaf spotting that grows in coverage and creates dead, crusty patches).

Have you gotten heavy rains?

Is your raised bed comprised primarily of a soil less potting mix or with real dirt, some cow manure and some home-cooked compost?

Can you post a photo of the plants?


Odds are I won't have a clue or be able to help in any useful way regardless of extra information. But, if you provide it I will take some guesses

[epaul]

Garden center plants are fine. The only reason to start with seeds is if you want to for some reason. I start seeds because:

1) I like to try newer varieties that garden centers don't offer (garden centers tend to offer older, tried and true varieties that customers are familiar with)

2) I "push" the season and start my plants earlier than the outfits that supply garden centers. By the time the local nursery gets its first shipment of six-inch plants, I will have some that are two feet.

But, if you don't have the means or desire to "cheat" the season (greenhouse or lugging large potted tomatoes back to the basement when a frost threatens) local nurseries offer fine tomatoes at a good time for general garden plantings.

[epaul]

Thanks, John!

[Tamarack]

Tomato plants illustrated. The yellowing on the lower leaves has just occurred in the last day or two. Might add some Miracle Gro - the beans would appreciate it two.

This raised bed is in an urban desert canyon. Full sun almost all day between mid-June and mid-August. Lots of thermal mass. It gets lots of water - just about every day when it doesn't rain.

[TKennedy]

Question for epaul et.al. My tomatoes are a real forest with many vines and groups of tomatoes and blossoms on almost all. Some tomatoes are in clusters of three or four.
My wife says we should remove some tomatoes so the remaining ones will get bigger and thin the vines even if they have blossoms.

I am more of a “let a happy plant be happy” and don’t interfere.

Feelings?

[epaul]

Don, those are clearly unhappy plants (including your pepper plants). The indicators are the pale green (yellowish) leaves and clear lack of vigorous foliage growth.

There are two factors that can causes this, and they are related:

1) Lack of nutrients (specifically nitrogen). Nitrogen is the focus here. If nitrogen is lacking, the plant's leaves will be pale green to yellow, especially the new growth leaves. Repeat, if the new growth leaves are light green to yellow, that is almost certainly a lack of nitrogen

(bottom leaves can turn yellow for a dozen reasons, some natural, don't worry about them, just clip them off).


2) Nitrogen is soluble. Once your N fertilizer has converted to nitrate, it will go where the water goes. Heavy rains and too much water will do two things:

- the excess water will flush out nitrate and carry it away when it drains away

- excess water that hasn't had time or ability to drain away will fill up all the pore space in the soil, leaving no space for the oxygen soil bacteria requires to produce more nitrogen.



My good guess is that your raised bed has run out of nitrogen and that explains the yellowed new growth and lack of growth in general. This shortage of N could have been present at the git go or may been exacerbated by heavy rains or too much watering. Regardless, it is there.

Your raised bed is a closed system. Plants will extract nutrients which means nutrients will need to be added. With additions of organic material, soil bacteria will create nitrogen by breaking down (eating) this organic material. But, it is a slow, ongoing process. And if the soil gets waterlogged (saturated, with water filling all the pore spaces in the soil leaving no room for oxygen) not only is much existing N washed away, no new N is created and the plant is starved. Roots need bacteria and bacteria needs oxygen.

I am not a fan of manure as a fertilizer. Manure contains very little nitrogen. It will feed the bacteria that produces nitrogen. But so well any organic input, most of them cheaper, lighter, and easier to work with than those wet heavy bags of manure (that can be chock full of weed seeds).

Continue to add organic material, but also, next year, mix in a couple cups of some type of pelleted "timed release" broad spectrum fertilizer.



If you are living with a die hard organic gardener type, add the fertilizer at night.

[epaul]

For now, if the soil isn't waterlogged, if it is just good soil you can dig into without getting all muddied up, get some liquid Miracle Gro or equivalent that you can apply in a liquid form and give those plants a quick shot of N.

(don't work in granules, get something that liquid or is water soluble and can be applied in a liquid form. You have no time to mess around with granules)

If a couple measured shots of liquid N don't perk those plants up and lead to new growth with a nice green color after a week or two, then there is another problem. But, you won't know unless you add N now. Do it for science!

[epaul]

Terry, when it comes to prunnings, so much, ok, all of it, depends on whether you have determinate plant (meant to grow like a bush; stays in the cage, sort of) or indeterminate (wants to grow like a vine; will grow all over the place if you let it.

(there are varieties that will confuse the definitions)

Your plants appear to me as if they are indeterminate as it looks like they are going to get pretty tall, if you let them. But, they could be very vigorous determinates. I'm just guessing. And I can't give good advice until I know what variety you planted (all I need is the name of the variety and I will know... usually).

In short: If the plants are indeterminant, your wife is right. Prune. If they are determinate, you are. Leave them be.



Indeterminant plants (like Early Girl, Big Boy, Big Beef, most any heirloom or heirloom cross) benefit from regular pruning... especially if you want to get an earlier harvest. A plant only has so much energy. By pruning extra vegetative growth (suckers and unwanted stems) you encourage the plant to put more of its available energy into fruit production.

By nature (genetics), an indeterminate plant still thinks it is a vine in the tropics and has darn near the entire year to spread out and produce fruit all season long across as much jungle as it can cover. Pruning sends a message that it is no longer in Kansas and it better get the fruit show on the road (metaphors).

Whatever. Tomato growers have come to learn that if you want earlier tomatoes, (and early is what really matters) you need to prune indeterminates or they will put too much of their energy into vegetative growth (plant-thinking about the long term when there is no long term).

Typically, at the beginning, a grower will chose two or three stems to serve as the framework of the plant and pinch off any attempt (suckering) by the plant to start another stem. These two or three stems will be supported by stake, string, or cage. Eventually, a determined indeterminate will win out and more stems will develop and all might get away from you.

But the important pruning part is the early part, get those first sets of fruit in the bank. Get a framework. Support that framework. Pinch off the suckers that would start a new and unwanted stem. (don't pinch off the growth point, tip, of your wanted stem, pinch off the suckers that develop down below between leaf and stem)


With a determinant plant, (one that wants to grow like a bush. Celebrity is a well known example, as is any tomato that says "for container growth") leave it alone.

[epaul]

As for fruit pruning. Limiting the number of fruit that develop on a fruiting bracket/stem will lead to slightly larger fruit, but I have never noticed much of a difference when I have done it (unlike with pumpkins, that can get pretty noticeable. People that go for contest winners will only let one pumpkin grow per plant).

Below is a picture of a fruit bract. Never clip those off. But, if, when the tomatoes looked like wee marbles, if you had pinched off four of those little tomatoes you see below while they were in the baby stage, the remaining two survivors would have been slightly bigger, but, man, that would have been a big waste of tomato. Two very slightly larger ones compared to six nice ones? Nope, not for me.








Now it is common that you will see a fruiting bract with four of five nicely developing egg-sized tomatoes of roughly the same size while on the very edge of the bract there will be a couple marble-sized ones. It won't hurt if you clip those off, but there will be no great gain, either.

[TKennedy]

Thanks epaul!!

[billhammond]

Paul, all of the stuff you know, and the way you communicate it, flat-out amazes me so often.

Erased by the trombone, but still ...

[epaul]

Prune suckers and unwanted stems when they are small and have no flowers or fruit. You want to prune before a plant has wasted any energy in the growth of an unwanted stem.

If pruning after the fact (the stem has grown out and has flowers developing) prune on the backside of any developing flowers. Any flower seen is a flower to be kept. Pinching off the tip of any growing stem will send the plant's energy to other stems you are more interested seeing developed.

Pruning becomes an art (with any plant or tree). Envision the plant you want, form a plan, and carry it out. (with trees, always best to do the pruning in fall after leaf drop. Early bud and leaf is the worst time. The tree should be dormant.)

I like pruning. Tomatoes, apple trees, any tree.