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Post by millring on Aug 8, 2024 12:24:03 GMT -5
I didn't want to carry this on on a daily, but I do find this rather interesting. You may have some slight idea of how deeply my life is entrenched in the dog world ( I just got back from Indianapolis where we had a specialist looking into a chronic health problem with IceSha. Thank the random impersonal chance that brought about the universe, Dar had the prescience borne of experience to take out health insurance on IceSha). Anyway, for more than 30 years it's been performance and conformation shows and events and the subcultures that have developed around them.
There are strong opinions:
1. Rescue is next to godliness
2. Rescue gives tacit permission to backyard breed
3. Breeders improve dogs/The rescue world is the result of the -oodle delusion
4. We have the right to protect dogs from the wrong kind of people
But when it comes to civil rights, no law abiding citizen can be excluded from the general protection of participating in commerce. If we decide to sell something then we don't get to play judge and jury over who gets to buy it.
The thin veneer that protects the rescue groups is that in theory they are not participating in commerce. But I'd be willing to bet there's already been law suits brought by the excluded based on the perception that they are part of a protected class. In other words, the lines drawn are pretty blurry.
I'm happy with the idea of rescue. I'm happy with the idea of pure breeding. When the flood waters rise we probably need people sticking their fingers in the dikes AND engineers working toward actually repairing them.
"This afternoon my wife and son and I will be interviewed on Zoom to see if we meet the criteria for adopting a Labrador retriever. We've already submitted answers to a detailed written questionnaire. We're dealing with a nonprofit that does nothing but find suitable homes for rescued labs in Arizona. I'm glad to see that they're thorough"
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 8, 2024 13:02:54 GMT -5
John, my hipshot analysis is that groups like this aren't obligated to treat all applicants equally. For years I represent the publisher of the yellow pages directory. It would get sued fairly often for refusing to carry someone's ad. We always won those cases because the directory publisher had no legal obligation to do business with anyone. My law firm turned away clients at times just because we didn't like them or, in some cases, because we didn't like the cause they were espousing. In selling legal services, I did indeed get to play judge about who could buy the services, and I exercised that power.
But I quit following all this stuff nine years ago. My hipshot analysis is worth about as much as the vice presidency.
The group I mentioned fixes all dogs before they are offered for adoption, for whatever that's worth.
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Post by millring on Aug 8, 2024 13:19:19 GMT -5
John, my hipshot analysis is that groups like this aren't obligated to treat all applicants equally. For years I represent the publisher of the yellow pages directory. It would get sued fairly often for refusing to carry someone's ad. We always won those cases because the directory publisher had no legal obligation to do business with anyone. My law firm turned away clients at times just because we didn't like them or, in some cases, because we didn't like the cause they were espousing. In selling legal services, I did indeed get to play judge about who could buy the services, and I exercised that power. But I quit following all this stuff nine years ago. My hipshot analysis is worth about as much as the vice presidency. The group I mentioned fixes all dogs before they are offered for adoption, for whatever that's worth. Good comments. I think it does illustrate how hard it is to nail down where civil rights protections end and free markets begin. The right people can decide who they want to sell to and why, but the wrong people don't get that same privilege. |
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Post by Russell Letson on Aug 8, 2024 13:59:09 GMT -5
A bit of expansion of that right/wrong people divide? And maybe an example or two? (I'm anticpating something about wedding cakes.)
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 20,473 
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Post by Dub on Aug 8, 2024 14:38:19 GMT -5
John, you provide fodder for a great many lengthy essays. I imagined about a dozen or so just reading your initial post one time.
I think having excellent animals compete is a joyful thing, just like having excellent humans compete. The breeding thing gets a little more complex. Breeding for strength and ability seems a potentially beneficial endeavor. On the other hand, I’m generally opposed to breeding the runts to produce unusually tiny animals that have neither strength nor ability but are sooo cute. This seems immoral to me.
I’m not necessarily opposed to gene modification to produce smaller animals, just the practice of interbreeding the worst traits for human amusement.
I am absolutely opposed to mistreatment of animals of any family, genus, and species, even SoundHolers.
Of course one of the myriad questions you raise is “good” breeding vs. “bad” breeding. Who decides which is which and what moral code applies?
When we force protection on any species, are we acting in the best interests of anyone or anything? I think it’s an excellent idea to equip motor vehicles with well designed and tested seatbelts and air bags. I’m not as certain that forcing people to maintain and use them is as great an idea as ensuring their availability.
I tend to think that animal breeding (all species included) should not result in an animal that can’t survive as feral in adulthood. One of the things I love about “northern” dogs is their independent natures. They will befriend you, help you, and, in some circumstances, obey you, but they seem to have no concept of being owned. They seem to do whatever they do because they are moved to do it, not simply because that’s what some human wants.
We create laws against abusing and murdering other humans because allowing such behavior makes an ordered society impossible. We don’t make those laws because we think life is sacred. Life has never been held as sacred. I don’t see any evidence that God regards life as sacred. The soul, maybe, but not life. Religion and its documents are full of stories in which God kills nearly everyone because, as the old joke goes, “Some guys just piss you off.” In one account, God killed everything save Noah’s family and a few animals. In another, He killed all the first-born children. God, or gods, help armies kill opposing armies. So nobody really thinks being alive is a sacred thing.
This makes my mind flop around all over the place. Too much to think about to even make a list of subjeats to be addressed.
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Post by millring on Aug 8, 2024 14:49:17 GMT -5
Awesome post, Dub. You've been listening in on me and Dar.  |
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Post by coachdoc on Aug 8, 2024 15:58:34 GMT -5
Thou shalt not kill.
Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Pretty much all I have to say on the subject.
Not much of a deep thinker on this topic.
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Post by david on Aug 8, 2024 17:44:53 GMT -5
Interesting points, John. You would know better hat I whether dog breeders refuse to sell dogs to people who they do not think would be good owners. The 14th Amendment and the Civil Rights Act and their case law interpretation is not my area, but I suspect that a dog breeder can determine who to sell to as long as the breeder's decision does not discriminate based upon race, religion, etc.
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Post by epaul on Aug 8, 2024 17:55:17 GMT -5
Our cat is a rescue cat from the local humane society. They knocked $25 oft their normal adoption fee because she had just been returned by her previous adopters, so we got a spayed cat with all her shots for only $25. (the first week she came close to getting returned again, but then settled down and has become a great cat ((and a tremendous rabbit hunter, most of which she is intent on delivering to us))
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Post by billhammond on Aug 8, 2024 18:19:39 GMT -5
Our cat is a rescue cat from the local humane society. They knocked $25 oft their normal adoption fee because she had just been returned by her previous adopters, so we got a spayed cat with all her shots for only $25. (the first week she came close to getting returned again, but then settled down and has become a great cat ((and a tremendous rabbit hunter, most of which she is intent on delivering to us)) You let her free-range outdoors? |
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Post by epaul on Aug 8, 2024 19:56:03 GMT -5
Yep.
She was a young cat of the streets when we got her and there was no changing her, or desire to on our part According to person that called animal police on her, she had been seen around the neighborhood for the entire summer and was a verified stray. According the vet, she had had a batch of kittens.
(she doesn't eat the rabbits, she tries bring them into the house so we can eat them. She has a special meow that let's us know when she is bringing us food. Twice she made it in with her catch, which she let them go so that we could get our, in her opinion, needed practice with catching live prey. Fortunately, baby rabbits are easy to catch.)
I've never had an indoor-only cat. A dozen or so outdoor only. And three combo-cats.
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Post by billhammond on Aug 8, 2024 20:05:33 GMT -5
Yep. She was a young cat of the streets when we got her and there was no changing her, or desire to on our part According to person that called animal police on her, she had been seen around the neighborhood for the entire summer and was a verified stray. According the vet, she had had a batch of kittens. (she doesn't eat the rabbits, she tries bring them into the house so we can eat them. She has a special meow that let's us know when she is bringing us food. Twice she made it in with her catch, which she let them go so that we could get our, in her opinion, needed practice with catching live prey. Fortunately, baby rabbits are easy to catch.) I've never had an indoor-only cat. A dozen or so outdoor only. And three combo-cats. Any idea of how she treats songbirds? Sorry to sound judgy here. |
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Post by epaul on Aug 8, 2024 22:57:41 GMT -5
Pretty good idea. She's brought in a dozen or so baby rabbits. The same or more mice. Hasn't brought us a bird yet. Nor are there any clumps of feathers to be found around the feeders or the deck (a good sign as no predator eats the feathers. So if you see a clump of feathers but no bird, it doesn't take a Sherlock to deduce what happened).
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Post by dradtke on Aug 9, 2024 12:29:25 GMT -5
So if you see a clump of feathers but no bird, it doesn't take a Sherlock to deduce what happened). The bird got hot and took them off? |
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Post by howard lee on Aug 9, 2024 12:39:42 GMT -5
Mm-hmm. It's like reverse eugenics for animals.
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Post by epaul on Aug 9, 2024 12:45:30 GMT -5
So if you see a clump of feathers but no bird, it doesn't take a Sherlock to deduce what happened). The bird got hot and took them off? Elementary, my dear Radke. |
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Post by david on Aug 9, 2024 17:09:59 GMT -5
I suspect that if cats have a ready supply of mice, voles, or other little land critters to hunt, they are less likely to go after birds. If you have pest attractants, like grain and hay, (or as I would imagine, a nice juicy vegetable garden like epaul might have) outdoor cats are great.
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