Luthiers: Finish Sinking at Center Seam...

[howard lee]

... and this happened to my Huss and Dalton TD-R a couple of years ago. For months, I watched the finish sink into the center seam of its red spruce top until finally, one day I opened the case and saw that the center seam had separated, or cracked, or whatever. H&D had me ship it to the shop and they performed a beautiful repair of the separation and finish in the spot. A thin dark line is visible, but when you run your finger over where the split was, you don't feel it.

Now, a similar thing seems to be happening to the Huss and Dalton TD-M that lives here. The sinkage is about an inch or 1-1/2 inches long, and has been advancing with the speed of tectonic plates. Some friends have posited that it's the builder's fault for poor butt-joint and gluing techniques, but H&D had been doing this for years when I purchased these guitars. Other friends have suggested that wood is organic and does whatever it wants to do, whether I humidify properly or not. I keep two hygrometers in the room to monitor the RH, and the guitars are cased with in-case humidifiers like Marty's soap-dish variety. I don't allow the sponges to dry out.

Anyone have any idea why this might be happening? It is a mystery to me. I asked over at the UMGF, and the luthiers there seem to be self-important and gruff in their replies. Ask a simplpe question...

The offending center seam. Click for a larger view.

[drlj]

Why don’t you post this on the H&D forum to see if other H&D owners are experiencing something similar? It might help identify if it is a H&D design or construction problem or something else. This is your 2nd H&D guitar with the same problem in the same location, correct? That makes me wonder if it has to do with how they join the wood or with how they attach the bridge.
It can be repaired with no ill effects to the guitar, but it would be nice to find out why it has happened. Have you checked your other H&D?

[howard lee]

Sept 27, 2024 8:04:19 GMT -5 drlj said:

Why don’t you post this on the H&D forum to see if other H&D owners are experiencing something similar? It might help identify if it is a H&D design or construction problem or something else. This is your 2nd H&D guitar with the same problem in the same location, correct? That makes me wonder if it has to do with how they join the wood or with how they attach the bridge.
It can be repaired with no ill effects to the guitar, but it would be nice to find out why it has happened. Have you checked your other H&D?

The H&D forum has been pretty dormant the last couple of years. I did email Huss and Dalton yesterday and included the photo. I am waiting for a reply from Mark; since he is the builder, he would probably have the clearest insight into why this is happening. Interestingly, my H&D OM, the oldest one I have (2000), with a radiused top, is showing no such signs. That center seam is as tight as a mosquito's butthole stretched over a rain barrel.

[TKennedy]

I have no idea but that’s a well supported area with the bridge and bridge plate. It might be with the little bulge that happens normally behind the bridge and the zealous humidification you got a little v shaped gap in the seam and the finish sunk into it. Is it nitro?

Let us know what H&D says.

I hate those through saddle bridges. To lower the action you have to go down from the top and then re-intonate and recrown the whole thing.

[howard lee]

Sept 27, 2024 8:52:23 GMT -5 TKennedy said:

I have no idea but that’s a well supported area with the bridge and bridge plate. It might be with the little bulge that happens normally behind the bridge and the zealous humidification you got a little v shaped gap in the seam and the finish sunk into it. Is it nitro?

Let us know what H&D says.

I hate those through saddle bridges. To lower the action you have to go down from the top and then re-intonate and recrown the whole thing.

I don't think my humidification is particularly overzealous, Terry. Just attentive when the RH is below 40%. There is hardly any belly bulge there.

H&D finishes with a thin coat of catalyzed urethane, not nitro. 

In retrospect, a drop-in saddle is much more convenient, as is truss rod access through the peg head. I have crafted long saddles from cow bone in the past with good results.

[drlj]

I am not saying you do this, but I think many people over-humidify. I have seen guitars with bulging tops because of too much moisture.
A luthier friend showed me one I thought was going to explode that he was de-humidifying. If humidity is ok in your house, a damp sponge case humidifier like those Mr. Marty makes is all that is necessary.
I don’t do anything beyond that & I have guitars that are from 22 to 55 years old and never had a problem(knocking on wood).
Who knows what caused it? Two guitars from the same builder that are very close in age makes me suspicious of something done during construction but it could be a coincidence, too.
Whatever caused it can’t be changed now so keep an eye on it &, when it needs to be repaired, ship it back so they can fix it.

[howard lee]

Sept 27, 2024 9:41:33 GMT -5 drlj said:

I am not saying you do this, but I think many people over-humidify. I have seen guitars with bulging tops because of too much moisture.
A luthier friend showed me one I thought was going to explode that he was de-humidifying. If humidity is ok in your house, a damp sponge case humidifier like those Mr. Marty makes is all that is necessary.
I don’t do anything beyond that & I have guitars that are from 22 to 55 years old and never had a problem(knocking on wood).
Who knows what caused it? Two guitars from the same builder that are very close in age makes me suspicious of something done during construction but it could be a coincidence, too.
Whatever caused it can’t be changed now so keep an eye on it &, when it needs to be repaired, ship it back so they can fix it.

The conditions you describe are exactly what exist here. All I do to humidify is the in-case soap dish sponge thing. I use a room humidifier in winter when the heat is on and the RH drops below 35% and that usually keeps the RH in the room between 45% and 50%. The tops are definitely not bulging on these guitars, or the OM or the other dread from another builder.

The first guitar was built in 2003. The one I am watching currently was built in 2011. Wood can be unpredictable in the way it behaves, as we know. 

You pay your money and you take your chances.

[epaul]

Have you tried treating your guitar tops with beet oil? The stuff works wonder fixes on everything (including in the bedroom!). Don't cheap out, use only genuine North Dakota beet oil from North Dakota beets.

[Marshall]

Sept 27, 2024 8:52:23 GMT -5 TKennedy said:

I have no idea but that’s a well supported area with the bridge and bridge plate. It might be with the little bulge that happens normally behind the bridge and the zealous humidification you got a little v shaped gap in the seam and the finish sunk into it. Is it nitro?

Let us know what H&D says.

I hate those through saddle bridges. To lower the action you have to go down from the top and then re-intonate and recrown the whole thing.

From an engineering perspective; the finish goes along for the ride. It's the wood that moves. As Terry says, the bridge and bridge plate are beefier and restrict overall movement of the top. But once the top moves away from the locked in area it can move more freely. There is a transition area from freedom-to-restriction. That is where you're noticing the change. Like pleats in a dress.

It could be the book-matched top pieces have a slight variation in the grain that create the possibility of a dip.

It'll be interesting to see what H&D have to say. For me, I wouldn't be concerned. But you know me.

[majorminor]

I figure it's gotta be them or you.

[Rob Hanesworth]

Sept 27, 2024 11:09:42 GMT -5 Marshall said:

For me, I wouldn't be concerned. But you know me.

Yeah, why worry about a guitar you will only own for a few weeks at most.

[majorminor]

IMO if it wasn't there and now it's slowly appearing that seam is probably going to to seperate just like the last one did but your other brand guitars aren't.

Sorry to see this. Some of those boutique guys build on the edge. I gave up on Santa Cruz years ago as they were a lot fussier than most guitars.

And we are all in different climates but with Martins and Gibsons I don't get excited or see changes in set up until RH is in the low 30s for extended periods. I also find extended periods of 50% RH is a little too high if guitar is uncased and will see changes.

I've recently gone to those D Addario gel pack things on a few guitar as they are touted to both wet and dry as needed to maintain equilibrium. They worked well for me thru the summer AC drying cycle.

[coachdoc]

Sept 27, 2024 10:08:06 GMT -5 epaul said:

Have you tried treating your guitar tops with beet oil? The stuff works wonder fixes on everything (including in the bedroom!). Don't cheap out, use only genuine North Dakota beet oil from North Dakota beets.

I guess my problem is using New England beets. I always try to buy local.

[Dub]

Howard, I'm sorry to give you this news, but your guitar is done for. You could throw it in a dumpster, but if you'd like, I'll send you the money to cover shipping, and you can send it to me. That way, you'll be spared the heartbreak of throwing it in yourself.

[Marshall]

Carbon fiber guitars don’t pucker like that. - I’m just sayin’


(Best of luck to you Howard)

[drlj]

[/quote]

That center seam is as tight as a mosquito's butthole stretched over a rain barrel.

[/quote]

I have lived my entire life with country, small town, common folks and I have never heard this expression before and I have heard 1,000s of colorful expressions. This seems “faux country” to me like something one would see on a wall hanger in the bargain bin at Cracker Barrel next to the cups that say “Fool Fuel”.
Besides, it represents a completely impossible event. Country sayings have to have some basis in reality. For example, “She’s uglier than a mud bug on a hot day!” Mud bugs, or crayfish, also known as crawdads, are a bit ugly and on a hot day, as the mud dries up, they tend to get a bit uglier.
Or, “He’s dumber than a sack of potatoes.” Potatoes have no intelligence.
I do, therefore, question the authenticity of the mosquito quote as a Country saying.

[howard lee]

drlj Well, maybe. The first time I ever heard that expression was from
actor/comedian Tim Thomerson. His language was a bit less family appropriate.

@dub If this seam does split, it's a repair that's not too difficult for a qualified tech person. No way I am giving up this sinker mahogany guitar that easily. In the immortal words of Mark Dalton, in Premier Guitar, December 24, 2013:

"When it comes down to it, I personally feel that you should enjoy and play your guitar, live with the little cracks and dings that inevitably happen, and not make yourself miserable about cosmetics. If you have a repair that needs to be made, just be sure to get a qualified person to do a good job."

More interesting stuff: I added a Damp-It to the inside of the body yesterday, and although I can still see a bit of a dip, I can't feel it with my finger the way I could yesterday.

You know, if it gives way, so be it. I'll just get it repaired. If Charles Sawtelle's 1930s D-28
had 113 inches total of cracks in it and still sounded that good, it ain't the end of the world.

  

[drlj]

I had a workshop once with a finger style guitarist whose name escapes me and, when we were talking about new guitars, he said when you get a new guitar you should immediately bang it into a chair. That way you get it over with, since you know it’s going to happen, and just enjoy your guitar with no more worries.

[howard lee]

Sept 27, 2024 14:25:02 GMT -5 drlj said:

I had a workshop once with a finger style guitarist whose name escapes me and, when we were talking about new guitars, he said when you get a new guitar you should immediately bang it into a chair. That way you get it over with, since you know it’s going to happen, and just enjoy your guitar with no more worries.

Some people suggest dropping your key ring and keys on it.

[aquaduct]

Claim it's vintage and up the price you're asking for it 20%.

That'll solve it.