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Post by Supertramp78 on Nov 2, 2009 20:47:39 GMT -5
In case you missed the dates, the two guys that were arrested for plotting to kill the cartoonist were picked up last week. So say what you want about the relative dangers of pissing of Muslims vs Christians, but generally if you insult Christians, you won't stumble upon one four years later who is still trying to kill you for it.
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Post by RickW on Nov 2, 2009 20:52:24 GMT -5
I have not read enough the Quran through to comment, Paul - I suppose I should one day. I find the bible quite disturbing in a lot of ways, too. But there is a lot of beautiful Sufi writing out there, and Sufism is a lovely thing. There are a lot of Ismailis in Vancouver, also, and I find their devotion to good works and peace to be something to be admired, also. The Arabs, in the height of their power, reached the enlightenment long before Europe did - then kind of went downhill from there. As was noted above, the Muslims rulers of Spain were far, far kinder and tolerant than what came after.
I pretty much believe all religions should go away, not just Islam. It would make the world a happier place, IMHO.
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Post by Cornflake on Nov 2, 2009 20:57:55 GMT -5
"I pretty much believe all religions should go away, not just Islam. It would make the world a happier place, IMHO."
I don't know. Maybe. But I think it would make for a world with a poorer grasp of reality.
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Post by mnhermit on Nov 2, 2009 21:01:41 GMT -5
"I pretty much believe all religions should go away, not just Islam. It would make the world a happier place, IMHO." I don't know. Maybe. But I think it would make for a world with a poorer grasp of reality. I'm sorry Don, I don't mean to impugn your beliefs or religion(and I hope I don't), but as a practicing secular humanist that line just cracks me up!
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Post by Cornflake on Nov 2, 2009 21:20:46 GMT -5
I'm not offended, Dennis. We just disagree.
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Post by Russell Letson on Nov 2, 2009 21:42:31 GMT -5
Intellectuals who underestimate the nutsness of the nuts can wind up like this: www.thefileroom.org/documents/dyn/DisplayCase.cfm/id/1069BTW, BAM, you can thank intellectuals for your Constitution. And your electric lights. And bunches of other inventions and institutions that make your life bearable or even sustainable. For every educated twit who never learned to apply his book learning, I'll show you a lout who thinks that every problem can be solved by shooting it. There's plenty of folly to go around.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2009 21:43:56 GMT -5
Doug--wasn't that "The Lady in The Lake," directed by the late Robert Montgomery, who also stars as detective Phillip Marlowe? There's one scene in which we do see him, or rather he sees himself, in a mirror. Since the action is through his eyes, that's the only time he's visible on screen. Interesting gimmick, for the 1940s. Actually he's thinking of 'Dark Passage' (1947), where until Bogart has plastic surgery almost everything is shot from his point of view. 'Lady in the Lake was made in the same year - it must have been a 'fad' at the time. I have to admit I prefer 'Dark Passage', almost solely because of Bacall. (- and a young Agnes Morehead - who played her stock character - isn't it amazing how some actors start out playing old?) Yes! And as I read Doug's reply to my post, I was thinking, 'He must be thinking of "Dark Passage," ' but then when they remove the bandages the point of view suddenly changes, which I always found somewhat heavy-handed. Keep in mind that next to Clarence White, Bogey is my all-time hero. And I completely agree with you about the young Lauren Bacall. Some characters do start out playing old...remember Thelma Ritter? Here she is with the divine Grace Kelly and James Stewart in Hitchcock's Rear Window. Ritter didn't get her first movie role until she was 45 years old, and died of a heart attack at the age of 66. I know this has nothing to do with the thread, really, but, well... tough.
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Post by millring on Nov 2, 2009 21:52:34 GMT -5
I'll show you a lout who thinks that every problem can be solved by shooting it.
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Post by Cornflake on Nov 2, 2009 21:53:44 GMT -5
"I know this has nothing to do with the thread, really, but, well...tough."
That should be the Soundhole motto.
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Post by Supertramp78 on Nov 2, 2009 22:04:07 GMT -5
"I know this has nothing to do with the thread, really, but, well...tough." That should be the Soundhole motto. +1
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Post by Doug on Nov 2, 2009 23:02:22 GMT -5
I have to disagree with that one. Our terrorist are fine. Washington, Adams, Henry, Revere etc. It's the other guys terrorist who are the problem.
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Post by RickW on Nov 2, 2009 23:05:42 GMT -5
"I pretty much believe all religions should go away, not just Islam. It would make the world a happier place, IMHO." I don't know. Maybe. But I think it would make for a world with a poorer grasp of reality. Well, you could call that one either way, I think, depending on the side you're leaning to. The problem I have with most religions, is the insistence on being the absolute truth - which is where so much of the trouble comes from. I'm not much on absolutes, which is why I guess I like Buddhist philosophy so much.
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Post by mnhermit on Nov 3, 2009 0:25:47 GMT -5
I'm absolutely sure that God isn't the problem - people are (their use of God as an excuse, instead of an inspiration)
(I'm trying to be a positive absolutist, a sub sect of secular humanism)
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Post by sidheguitarmichael on Nov 3, 2009 2:08:53 GMT -5
You folks are once again doing pretty well with a third rail topic. Since the thread started on movies and nobody has yet mentioned Hitler, here's one courtesy of the AG forum: www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEqvCktdSBMCarry on.
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Post by paulschlimm on Nov 3, 2009 2:31:57 GMT -5
The Invisible Man. Duh?
<motorcycles suck> - Bill, you sleeping?
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Post by dradtke on Nov 3, 2009 7:49:48 GMT -5
You folks are once again doing pretty well with a third rail topic. Since the thread started on movies and nobody has yet mentioned Hitler, here's one courtesy of the AG forum: www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEqvCktdSBMCarry on. That one is brilliant. (The movie the clip is stolen from is excellent too, by the way)
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Post by Village Idiot on Nov 3, 2009 8:55:38 GMT -5
Who is Keanu Reeves? They had a girl play the Messiah?
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Post by Greg B on Nov 3, 2009 9:41:53 GMT -5
I don't know. Maybe. But I think it would make for a world with a poorer grasp of reality. Must . . . Not . . . . Comment Must . . . Be . . . .Good . . . . Atheist Irony Meter Exploding . . . .
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2009 17:02:08 GMT -5
So, Jeff, would that be "4 out of 5" Western intellectuals and artists that relish the Piss Christ? I would be interested in examples of deference to Christian sensibilities (in recent years) that are equivalent to the Yale University Press example. And to be clear where I am coming from, I think everything should be defamed, all the time. Or at least we should be willing to defame everything, all the time. Actually doing so can get tiring. And boringly non-creative. But its also boringly non-creative when, err, "creative" types pretend they are being subversive by criticizing or defaming Christianity. Yawn. Lets try something fresh, eh? Communication is difficult, so it behooves me to be carefull. But, you probably never will be able to see the other point of view, Omaha. Without the experience of growing up non-christian, it's difficult to comprehend. Look, it's not like atheist kids were beaten in my generation, or hung, or even locked up. So, let's fairly credit the predominant religious culture for that. No question, we/you/I have a moderately enlightened society where the more conspicuous forms of prejudice are suppressed. Good on us. It's NOT like there is a hube, visible phsycic scar, or anything: Just thousands of little cuts. They heel, and anyone with character can get over it. So, I had to tie one particular religion to my countriy's flag every stinking day of public school for 12 years. AND, then say the Lord's Prayer (they'd excuse a couple 7th day adventists, but nobody invited the atheists to stand down). So, I STILL can recite from memory every non-sense syllable of that doggeral still. No big deal. The praying was (absurdly, I thought) also recited, mandatorily if you wanted to play, before football games. I was only in a church once as a kid, but STILL know a lot about christian mythology and heroes. Why would an atheist be able to tell you the names of 12 bronze-age side-kick characters? I went to a college, operated entirely by the US government that had, essentially, mandatory chapel every sunday. Again, not a BAD deal, because it was so much more relaxing then the alternative. And so on. The societal indoctrination was overwhelming, pervasive, and for all practical purposes, mandatory. Not one incident really HURT or left a scar. Not even the social things, where some over-zealous christian friend "invites" everyone to pray to his god. Who's to really complain? You're looking for a gaping, open wound that ain't there. I'm sure you may want to point out that life would be tougher in north Korea. Granted. But, what you are really looking for here are are a thousand little nicks or cuts, now healed over. It wasn't a traumatic, gut-wrenching nut-buster. Just a long, persistant, chronic daily annoyance at a constant influx of unwanted mythology, superstition, ritual or what seems to us to be irrational non-sequiters. It's actually VERY easy to take, sometimes even half-enjoyable. There's fellowship that sometimes trumps the bizarre rituals or verses. I'm all cool with that. Here's where tempers sometimes get raised. A natural (if unneccessary) reaction to persistant annoyance can be way too much glee when I hear about some football player that got tired of coerced ritual, and complained to a school board. So, when we hear some perfectly nice christian bellyache that the decision banning the school from imposing the prayer is "discrimination against christians", I can get frustrated. Then, the guy will say something like "Why can't atheists be more tolerant of our religion". And, I don't say anything. He's a great guy, and not normally as dumb as a freaking box of nails. But, I'm thinking "I'VE BEEN TOLERANT FOR 56 YEARS, DUDE, NOW IT'S YOUR TURN". That type of thought merely prooves that I'm as dumb as a box of nails, too. He's got his own story, and how am I expected to understand it? But, here's the deal: No muslim imposed his mythology on the Pledge of Allegiance. No Jew ever made me recite the Lord's Prayer. It wasn't a Scientologist that coerced me to his chapel for four years of college. It wasn't hindus that kidnapped my mother when she was 7, and sent her to a church school, where she'd never see her parents again. That was all just christians, most of whom were good, decent people, acting with altruistic intentions. So, as atheists, we probably seem (and possibly are) more indulgent of the mythologies/superstitions that were not rammed down our throat. It's more a concept of familarity breeding contempt than any secret plot to doom your faith, or something. There's a little fear involved, perhaps. I got kind of scared once, seeing some revivalists rolling on the ground, and the look in the faces of some of the ritual participants. Like a zombie movie, but without the bad lighting. (Granting your point: I do NOT experience the same fear, if attending a Pow-Wow, even though some of the rituals seem just as peculiar). When you hear some crazy-ass TV preacher cheering for hurricanes to hit US cities, to even the score with his god, it's only alarming when you consider that millions of folks are beleiving him. And, there are DOZENS of crazy-ass TV preachers, each with millions of followers! Not as scary as the crazy-ass imam's that keep YOU awake, for sure. But, look, when do YOU ever see a crazy-ass imam? I'll bet that I can turn on a TV RIGHT NOW, and find the crazy-ass preacher, and reflect, with some small amount of horror, that the guy has millions of followers. If you are saying that some atheists overreact to this type of stuff, perhaps you are right. But, you gotta admit, objectively I think, that there is something at least troubling about the fact that there really are millions of utterly irrational people in society, and many of them are in positions of POWER. We have one ex-president that told another head of state that the iraq war was precipitated by mythological demons in the mideast. There's plenty of facts to suggest we aren't all that far out of the dark ages, and it disturbs us that a few christians view the dark ages as "the good old days". Too many of our close friends do not even comprehend why banning compulsory prayer in public schools was a pretty damn good idea, and not tryanny against their faith. We're all really on the same side here. I doubt any atheist can show you the type of wound you're looking for. (Actually, there is some assurance that the WORST christian behavior seems to be reserved for dissident christian sects, but that's another story) But, there IS a history back there, not too damn long ago that makes some of us seem a little paranoid, perhaps.
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Post by Cornflake on Nov 3, 2009 17:23:57 GMT -5
Interesting post, dharmabum. I was an atheist for many years but I wasn't raised one, so I never had any idea how it looked from that perspective.
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