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Post by epaul on Nov 4, 2009 23:37:14 GMT -5
There is this chicken and egg thing going on with culture and religion. It is true that to a large degree religion is just a reflection of a culture. But if religion is to have any worth at all, and to a degree, it can be argued that it does, then religion has to somehow rise above culture, elevate and inspire culture. In a good way.
In the Middle East, religion is doing neither. It is just reinforcing and codifying hate, lies, and goddamn meanness.
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Post by Cornflake on Nov 4, 2009 23:59:13 GMT -5
"In the Middle East, religion is doing neither. It is just reinforcing and codifying hate, lies, and goddamn meanness."
How do you know that, Paul? We know that some people who are hateful invoke Islam. We don't know what effect it may be having on much larger numbers of people.
Unless I've garbled my history, during the French Revolution the fervent proponents of Reason lopped off lots of heads. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with reason. Virtually any philosophy or religion can be invoked and twisted by killers, and that's happened with many if not most of them. There's not necessarily a causal relationship.
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Post by epaul on Nov 5, 2009 0:47:40 GMT -5
What is a religion?
Is religion the book of the founder? The Koran is the book of the prophet. In the chapter titled "The Children of Israel", Jews are described as liars who have left the true path. They are called the enemies of the true believers. And they are to be twice punished by Allah, with their stain to be wiped from the earth.
Is religion the collection of writing of believers? There are hundreds and hundreds of hadiths (prayer books and general guides to correct living). In these you can find several nice parables of Jewish treachery and insult and prayers for the smiting of the evil ones. A hadith Hamas is particularly fond of quoting has Allah leading the Muslims in a final battle against the Jews, with Jews attempting to hide behind the stones, but the stones betray the Jews, saying, "Oh, Abdalla, there is a Jew hiding behind me. Slay him." For the hour will not come until you fight against the Jew.
Is religion in the edicts of the holy ones? Such as those that banned Jews from owning property or riding donkeys?
Is religion in the current interpretations of the holy book and the laws being taught to children in the Madrasas? Teachings of how it is all right to kill Jewish civilians as there is no such thing as a Jewish civilian, for all belong to the army arrayed against Islam and the prophet, peace be unto him.
Unless I've garbled the last three books I've read, and everything I've seen and heard the last three, six, twelve or twenty years about the Middle East, it sure seems to me that in the Middle East that religion, whether by book, words of the prophets, or writings and teachings of the holy ones, is reinforcing and codifying hate, lies, and goddamn meanness.
The stuff the kids are being taught in many of the madrases is very disturbing. And it doesn't seem right to describe as extreme what appears to be common. And no matter what is signed or promised, holy settlers keep grabbing more and more of the holy land.
The only people that ever get even close to peace in the Middle East are secularists and near-secularists. The deeper the hold of religion, the stronger the call for blood. That is observable Middle East history. On both sides, it is those gripped by religion that sabotage, foul, and ruin whatever slim chance for peace comes into briefness.
You want a quick war, mention Jerusalem to any religion in the Middle East. That war won't be a fad of hotheads. It has been an ongoing war of religion for two thousand years.
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Post by epaul on Nov 5, 2009 1:31:16 GMT -5
If not for religion, who would know the difference between Arab and Jew? No one, for they would be the same people.
If not for religion, the Jews, or a particularly, troublesome segment of them, would never have been kicked out of the Middle East by the Romans, only to claim a holy right to return and take settled land from others a thousand years later.
If not for religion, Christians wouldn’t have tormented, uprooted, and slain Jews in Germany, Russia, Spain, France, and everywhere else they simply tried to live.
If not for religion, we wouldn’t be arming Israel to the teeth in hopes that it will be Fort Jehovah come the end times.
If there were no religion, we would still be bastards. But religion allows us to be bastards with a purpose. And that is a far worse and longer lasting form of bastardness. For every action has a noble excuse. Every scheme has a divine blessing. And no revenge can ever starve for it is fed with prayer.
And the Middle East, all three or four thousand years of it, is Exhibit A.
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Post by millring on Nov 5, 2009 6:55:31 GMT -5
"If not for religion, we wouldn’t be arming Israel to the teeth in hopes that it will be Fort Jehovah come the end times."
I'm not so sure. I have no doubt that some Americans may view it that way. But I don't think that our support for Israel rests even significantly on that premise. I think we merely viewed them as a valuable ally -- especially during the cold war -- and that alliance has continued as we see some strategic value in having an ally in the Middle East.
Other than that, I don't much disagree with your analysis regarding the role of religion historically and in the middle east. It doesn't dismiss religion -- it just points to the role it can and has played in history and the middle east. It isn't an analysis -- however reflexively inferred -- that religion isn't valid or even connected to "true". Just that if judged by the standard of rational and/or peaceful, religions have often fallen far short.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2009 12:27:10 GMT -5
At this point, this atheist will offer a thought in defense of religion. It is TRUE that religion has either led to, or provided some kind of rationale for many historical attrocities. But, the thought has always occured to me that, even if we were somehow able to evolve past gods and demons, and the absurd mythologies in most faiths... We'd still find a basis for attrocities and their justification.
Religion evolved in our species as a means of reinforcing tribalism. Shamen could (and still do) serve the purpose of demonizing other groups, and resolving any remorse when tribal members slaughter other tribes. But, I hAVE to beleive that, even if humans never invented gods and demons to serve this purpose, some OTHER from of rationalization and justification would have emerged. In fact, other, non-religious rationalizations have emerged in atheistic movements to justify and absolve slaughter and conquest. let's not even get into counting or comparisons. The point is that humans are capable of pretty abyssimal acts, with or without religion. At most, religion simply provides an immediate traditional tool. Without it, a society has to develop brand new non-religious traditions (such as a "dictatorship of the proletariat") to accomplish what other tribes can already do with built-in gods, demons and mythologies.
The underlying problem most likely relates to group identification/tribalism more than gods, demons and mythologies.
There ARE christians that reflexively support Israeli aggression/attrocity on religious grounds. But, come on.... there'd be, and is, that type of "faithfull" support, anyway. most israelis originated in europe or the US, have fairer skin, and a similar culture than their adversaries. Don't you think there'd be some kind of other non-religious motivations to reflexively support them? I'm NOT religious, and tend to view Israel as more "modern" and "humane" than their adversaries. Probably some wierd form of tribal identification. Thus, even though I don't have a dog in the fight, there's a reflexive instinct to support israel. But, it ain't religious.
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Post by Cornflake on Nov 5, 2009 12:40:39 GMT -5
Mostly concur with dharmabum and disagree with epaul.
"If not for religion, Christians wouldn’t have tormented, uprooted, and slain Jews in Germany, Russia, Spain, France, and everywhere else they simply tried to live."
Oh, yeah, they probably would have, simply because Jews weren't from "their" tribe. Hitler wasn't really religious. While googling to see if I recalled that correctly, I found this marching song of the Hitler Youth:
"We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel, Away with incense and Holy Water, The Church can go hang for all we care, The Swastika brings salvation on Earth."
The anticlerical French revolutionaries didn't need religion to justify lopping off disfavored heads. Atheistic Marxists didn't need religion to kill millions during Stalin's reign. This brutal side of humanity seems perpetual. Any convenient system of thought and/or belief can be used to justify its actions.
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Post by Supertramp78 on Nov 5, 2009 12:44:02 GMT -5
"Any convenient system of thought and/or belief can be used to justify its actions."
While I agree with this, why provide the world with one or not speak out against the ones that exist?
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Post by Cornflake on Nov 5, 2009 13:12:51 GMT -5
I'm not sure I follow the question, Tramp. I can't imagine humanity without philosophies and religions. Which really blur into each other, despite what some think. Pretty much everybody tells himself or herself some story about existence. It's all just random atoms, a tale told by an idiot signifying nothing...it's all a manifestation of a benevolent deity...it's all class conflict...it's all about buying the most things...I can't think of anybody who doesn't have something to plug into that slot in the brain.
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Post by Supertramp78 on Nov 5, 2009 13:28:03 GMT -5
I'm not saying get rid of everything. You can't. But there are some that are just demonstrably not working out all that well lately and to say it is bad form to speak out against them because hundreds of years ago they weren't all that bad or because if they weren't here something else would take their place, seems a bit short sighted. People will justify their actions any way they can. As Paul has pointed out (and I know you don't agree with him), there are some belief systems out there that are filled with enough nuggets of bad ideas that they are starting to become a serious problem. When some of those bad ideas are adopted as the official laws of entire countries, don't you think that belief system has started to become counter productive?
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Post by Cornflake on Nov 5, 2009 13:45:47 GMT -5
Tramp, I certainly don't think that all systems of thought and/or belief are equal. No offense to any Muslims who may be reading but Islam is not one of my favorites. I think Paul is wrong, though, in thinking that Islamic beliefs play a big part in the problems we're seeing.
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Post by millring on Nov 5, 2009 13:50:58 GMT -5
I'm not saying get rid of everything. You can't. But there are some that are just demonstrably not working out all that well lately and to say it is bad form to speak out against them because hundreds of years ago they weren't all that bad or because if they weren't here something else would take their place, seems a bit short sighted. People will justify their actions any way they can. As Paul has pointed out (and I know you don't agree with him), there are some belief systems out there that are filled with enough nuggets of bad ideas that they are starting to become a serious problem. When some of those bad ideas are adopted as the official laws of entire countries, don't you think that belief system has started to become counter productive? I agree. I think that any philosophical system should be judged on 1. the most logical, accurate understanding of its tenets, and 2. the actions of its adherents and 3. the case made for whether its adherents can logically be said to be following its tenets. I don't think any religion should be above scrutiny. Certainly not Christianity. I merely bristle at what I see as criticisms of Christianity that obviously stem from a lack of understanding what Christianity actually is. And that's why I include my #3 above. I actually welcome debate. I want every religion to feel the need to justify its existance on an ongoing basis. If culture, science, knowledge moves us on to an understanding that questions religion on a rational basis, that criticism should not be avoided. I think that religions cloister or fight to avoid what they cannot logically defend.
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Post by patrick on Nov 5, 2009 14:57:05 GMT -5
But there is little evidence of symbol or metaphor tempering the understanding of the Koran in the place the invented Islam, Saudi Arabia. Nor anywhere else in the Middle East, for that matter. Nor in Pakistan or Somalia. I don’t understand how anyone who observes how Islam functions in the Arab world, who observes how Sharia law rules and limits, whips and cloaks, would quibble with the description of literal Islam, the most common kind by far, as hateful and ugly. According to who? You're not painting with a broad brush here, you've gone wild with the Wagner Power Painter! You're describing 1.4 billion people who are found around the world. You've taken the practices of Saudi Arabia (one of the smallest Muslim countries), where they definitely STILL practice a primitive form of tribalism, and ascribed it to all Muslims, including those in modern Arab countries like Bahrain and Qatar and Jordan and Lebanon, those in developing countries like Pakistan and India, those in Asian countries like Indonesia. You've completely conflated Sunni with Shia with Allawite with Sufi with any number of other sects and practices. This is like me deciding that Christianity is a cruel, misogynistic, suicidal cult religion based on the behavior of Jim Jones or the polygamist Mormon sects. Absurd. If Islam is so limiting to women, why is it that, at one time recently, half of all Muslims lived in countries run by democratically elected women? (India, Pakistan and Indonesia). Why is it that Nigeria, another large Muslim nation, has a democratically elected woman as President? Why does Iran have a greater percentage of women in its parliament than the US has in Congress? Why does Iran have a higher percentage of female doctors and college graduates than the US? When, exactly, will the US ever have a female President? You've extrapolated from a tiny percentage of Muslims to come up with this stuff? Then clearly Christians and Jews are bloodthirsty savages because the Christians murdered over 700 men, women and children in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps while the Israeli army waited outside firing flares over the camps at night so the slaughter could continue unabated.
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Post by Cornflake on Nov 5, 2009 15:56:31 GMT -5
Here's my tortured and unclear (in more than one sense) window analogy.
Deep within a dark hall, there is something beautiful and true that it's very important we know about.
Different groups of people cluster in front of a series of windows that separate them from this important thing. Almost all the religious groups have windows. So do the stoics and adherents of other bodies of thought that we may not think of as religious.
The windows are all very dirty. They're covered with fingerprints, dust, graffiti and ketchup. There's also a lot of glare. What's more, the different groups have covered their windows with exhortatory decals. Almost all the groups have decals that say "Love your neighbor," "Help the poor" and "Don't murder people." To varying degrees, they also have decals saying "Believe X, Y and Z." There are also group-specific decals such as "Don't eat beef" and "No dancing" and "No screwing unless you're married."
The windows are not all the same. Some are clearer. Some have better, wiser decals than others. The people at each window also vary widely, and they all see somewhat different things as they try to look through the window. At each window, though, some people manage to see--past all the impediments and distractions, imperfectly--something of what's on the other side. That's what mainly matters. Those who do glimpse what's beyond the window are all seeing the same thing, no matter what window they're in front of, whether they know it or not.
The exhortatory decals are not what it's centrally about, but they matter. A major reason they matter is that some people never see past them. For them, abiding by the exhortations is about all there is.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of decals. They're mostly generally worded. Anybody who wants to be hateful or judgmental can find some decal that will appear to justify it. Lots of people who are inclined to be hateful and judgmental do exactly that. The decals, if misunderstood, and if not illuminated by a glmipse of what's beyond the window, can justify all manner and degree of mischief, including killing. All the windows are susceptible to such problems, to varying degrees. Almost all of us would criticize the resulting behavior.
At all the windows, though, many people are getting an imperfect glimpse of what's on the other side. Some of us think that's critically important. Most of the people at the various windows are leading reasonably good lives within the limits of human fallibility.
Maybe some windows produce a disproportionate share of the abuses that we all detest. It's hard to know because there are so many other variables at work. (If the Palestinians had all been Lutherans, they still wouldn't have liked having their homeland given to others.) Even if that's true, though, I don't think that's a sufficient basis for condemning any window altogether.
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Post by bamfiles on Nov 5, 2009 16:23:01 GMT -5
Another good reason to get an iMac.
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Post by millring on Nov 5, 2009 16:24:25 GMT -5
Here's my tortured and unclear (in more than one sense) window analogy. Deep within a dark hall, there is something beautiful and true that it's very important we know about. Different groups of people cluster in front of a series of windows that separate them from this important thing. Almost all the religious groups have windows. So do the stoics and adherents of other bodies of thought that we may not think of as religious. The windows are all very dirty. They're covered with fingerprints, dust, graffiti and ketchup. There's also a lot of glare. What's more, the different groups have covered their windows with exhortatory decals. Almost all the groups have decals that say "Love your neighbor," "Help the poor" and "Don't murder people." To varying degrees, they also have decals saying "Believe X, Y and Z." There are also group-specific decals such as "Don't eat beef" and "No dancing" and "No screwing unless you're married." The windows are not all the same. Some are clearer. Some have better, wiser decals than others. The people at each window also vary widely, and they all see somewhat different things as they try to look through the window. At each window, though, some people manage to see--past all the impediments and distractions, imperfectly--something of what's on the other side. That's what mainly matters. Those who do glimpse what's beyond the window are all seeing the same thing, no matter what window they're in front of, whether they know it or not. The exhortatory decals are not what it's centrally about, but they matter. A major reason they matter is that some people never see past them. For them, abiding by the exhortations is about all there is. Unfortunately, there are a lot of decals. They're mostly generally worded. Anybody who wants to be hateful or judgmental can find some decal that will appear to justify it. Lots of people who are inclined to be hateful and judgmental do exactly that. The decals, if misunderstood, and if not illuminated by a glmipse of what's beyond the window, can justify all manner and degree of mischief, including killing. All the windows are susceptible to such problems, to varying degrees. Almost all of us would criticize the resulting behavior. At all the windows, though, many people are getting an imperfect glimpse of what's on the other side. Some of us think that's critically important. Most of the people at the various windows are leading reasonably good lives within the limits of human fallibility. Maybe some windows produce a disproportionate share of the abuses that we all detest. It's hard to know because there are so many other variables at work. (If the Palestinians had all been Lutherans, they still wouldn't have liked having their homeland given to others.) Even if that's true, though, I don't think that's a sufficient basis for condemning any window altogether. I sure am glad I theologically agree with Evan more than anyone else. The guy's a window cleaner.
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Post by Supertramp78 on Nov 5, 2009 16:41:45 GMT -5
There is a lot about Don's post that I know Kelly would really agree with. Me? Well, I'm thinking that the following phrase, "Deep within a dark hall, there is something beautiful and true that it's very important we know about" is an act of faith that is required to make all the other stuff worth it. What is there is nothing but a bunch of dirty windows and decals? What if some of those decals tell you that all the other windows are lies or false or nowhere near as good as your window? I think people get so caught up in defending their respective decals that they forgot about the 'important truth' that may or may not even be there in the first place. If the truth really is there then all the pain and suffering resulting in all these different windows might be worth it. If the truth isn't there, then all you are left with is the pain and suffering.
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Post by millring on Nov 5, 2009 16:43:58 GMT -5
If the truth really is there then all the pain and suffering resulting in all these different windows might be worth it. If the truth isn't there, then all you are left with is the pain and suffering. I agree with that.
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Post by Russell Letson on Nov 5, 2009 16:54:35 GMT -5
Pane and suffering?
Or panem et circenses?
I know, I'm a viper--a vindow viper, I vipe and vash de vindows.
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Post by dradtke on Nov 5, 2009 17:15:14 GMT -5
That's the old "Cathedral of the World" analogy. I think I've mentioned it here in the past, so obviously I agree with Don completely on this one.
And there is an Evangelical Lutheran Church in downtown Bethlehem, so some Palestinians are Lutheran. While speaking in the US, a sweet old lady asked the pastor how he converted to Christianity. He had to explain that Christianity started in Palestine.
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