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Post by Chesapeake on Jul 28, 2014 10:48:31 GMT -5
Sam Harris, neuroscientist and provocative thinker (author of End of Faith, among other titles) has published a blog entitled "Why Don't I Criticize Israel." I don't necessarily agree with all of his contentions, including that no nation (like Israel) should be organized around a particular religion; but he says a lot of things that I hold to be true about Jews and Muslims and the rest of the world. Thoughts? |
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Post by drlj on Jul 28, 2014 11:11:31 GMT -5
Quite the thought provoking article. I read it twice and find a lot with which to agree. The entire situation is scary and it is one that a lot of people seem to only have a surface knowledge about.
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Post by Russell Letson on Jul 28, 2014 11:59:29 GMT -5
He's trying very hard to think past easy analysis and condemnation, but as I read the last few paragraphs, I kept thinking that there are parallels between Palestinian support of Hamas and Israeli support of Netanyahu's brand of politics. The pathologies of the conflict tend to push the centers (or least-crazed) of both sides away from the rational-practical. Hamas & Co. are more clearly crazed and heartless than the Israeli right (or whatever direction Bibi's coalition exists in), but the current Israeli government certainly caters to (and depends on the support of) the theocratically inclined.
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Post by godotwaits on Jul 28, 2014 12:12:56 GMT -5
That was one of the most cogent analysis I have read regarding this crisis. Not that I like all the conclusions. The pure and simple truth is that one side is fighting "dirty" and another side is fighting a cleaner fight, but a necessary fight.
I would lend some consideration to what Russell said, as well, but then I'm even less knowledgeable of Israeli politics.
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Post by theevan on Jul 28, 2014 12:13:36 GMT -5
I like the way he used a zillion asides [NOTE:]. It illustrates how unproductive the arguments over these issues have become...and how many of them are really deflections.
He promised to offend everybody and that includes me.
But I got over it.
Anybody catch the Israeli ambassador to the US excoriating CNN for the coverage a few days back? Dude was relentless...and so on point.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 12:26:11 GMT -5
I like the way he used a zillion asides [NOTE:]. It illustrates how unproductive the arguments over these issues have become...and how many of them are really deflections. He promised to offend everybody and that includes me. But I got over it. Anybody catch the Israeli ambassador to the US excoriating CNN for the coverage a few days back? Dude was relentless...and so on point. Well that right there is a good indicator that he is hitting very close to the truth. The Israeli's fought so hard to create a Jewish homeland you think they would understand others wanting to do the same, they don't seem to. |
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Post by millring on Jul 28, 2014 12:33:00 GMT -5
I remember him when he was just a talent show contestant.
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Post by Marshall on Jul 28, 2014 12:35:24 GMT -5
That was one of the most cogent analysis I have read regarding this crisis. Not that I like all the conclusions. The pure and simple truth is that one side is fighting "dirty" and another side is fighting a cleaner fight, but a necessary fight. . . . , Haven't read the article yet. But dirty or clean, the truth as we see it is not the truth everyone sees or believes. To flip over to the Ukrainian thing, the Russian citizenry doesn't believe what we say about who-fired-what-from-where. They have their own truth (as spun by Putin. But they WANT to believe it). And they don't trust us. They feel we (US) is out to corner them and have our views dominate world politics at the detriment to Russian interests. So they believe what they want to believe. And much the same goes for the people in Gaza. They don't blame Hamas. Our view seems right to us on the sidelines. But we bring our own bias and history and blinders to the table. But in the end might makes right. |
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Post by RickW on Jul 28, 2014 12:46:48 GMT -5
We live in odd times, in many ways. We believe that war should not be total, that it should be fair, and moral. Two hundred years ago, if the current situation had existed where a small, weak state started lobbing weapons at the their much stronger neighbour, there would have been a burnt waistland full of corpses shortly thereafter. Might does not make right, but it tends to "solve" problems. As it stands now, i can't see any way for this to end well in the long term, and can only see the same agonizing repetition where the Israelis smack the Palestinians down, and the Palestinians slowly rearm and try it again. Why? Because it would take generations to forget all the anger over the death and distruction that has occurred, the loss of a homeland, of people growing up in refugee camps with nothing,
And if the Islamic militants take over Israel, I don't know that they'll be tha restrained. I think the only reason the Israelis are that restrained is that if they lost the favour of the western world, they'd be dead in the water.
I honestly don't think that at this point, there's much more to understand. All the talking and negotiating is not going to do a damned thing. Magic fairy dust might work. But nothing in the realm of reality.
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Post by theevan on Jul 28, 2014 12:47:38 GMT -5
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Post by godotwaits on Jul 28, 2014 13:04:04 GMT -5
Thank you Evan for putting that Up. I'd not seen it.
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Post by patrick on Jul 28, 2014 16:36:47 GMT -5
I read Harris’ book The End of Faith, which I thought was overall well-reasoned and analytical. However, when he got to the part about Israel, I thought it all fell apart. He rejects the biblical justifications for the existence of Israel, then invents some other, shaky justifications. It is not true that “the entire world” has tried repeatedly to kill all the Jews. If the entire world were in on it, they would have succeeded. At various times, and in various cultures, Jews have been attacked as have other groups. In other times and other cultures Jews have been welcomed and protected. There is no specific historical or theological reason for Muslims to “kill all the Jews.” Yes, there are verses in the Koran to that effect, as there are verses in the Old Testament where God repeatedly commands the Jews to kill all the Amalakites (Arabs). So what? In WWII, over 1 million Muslims served in Allied armies fighting to stop Nazi Germany, do Muslims get any credit for that? In WWII, the Arab countries were relatively safe havens from Jews fleeing the Europeans. Harris also fails to even address why Palestine has to be given to them (implicitly dismissing any Palestinian rights) and ignores the fact that no other country has been set up specifically to protect one particular group. In Harris’ discussion of the Palestinian/Israeli conflicts, he unquestioningly accepts a number of scurrilous accusations about Palestinians that have been disproved, while he repeats rather weak excuses for the Israeli’s conduct. First of all, there is NO evidence of Palestinians using human shields. And no, placing weapons systems in populated areas is not “human shields.” (If that were the case, Israel would be equally guilty). In international law, using human shields means that you actively collect civilians and move them into the area. This charge was leveled in the last Gaza War, and investigated by the Goldstone Commission who found no evidence. Furthermore, these conflicts are heavily covered by foreign journalists on the ground, and none will say they saw that happen. In contrast, Israeli soldiers have been found guilty in court of seizing Palestinian children and using them as human shields when on patrol or when approaching a Palestinian house. “Israel's human shields draw fire.” Here’s a story about the “Birthright” program run by the Israeli’s. Pay attention to the exchange between the American woman and the Israeli soldier on the topic of human shields. Far from Israel losing the media war, they’ve almost had it won. For a time in previous conflicts, you couldn’t find a Palestinian appearing on US TV shows or writing in US newspapers, Israel and its supporters had the field to themselves. More recently that has changed slightly, but only slightly. In the constant barrage of Israeli politicians and ambassadors and former officials, it’s hard to find more than a few Hamas spokespersons. I’ve seen maybe two, who got a few moments once. That’s it. Watch this fawning Wolf Blitzer interview. Blitzer, a former official with AIPAC, asks a leading question and then just lets Netanyahu have a monologue. You won’t see any Palestinian leader given that treatment. And reporters who are viewed as sympathetic to Palestinians get silenced. When Ayman Mohyeldin reported from Gaza and showed that video of the 4 Palestinian children being killed by the Israelis, it was thought that he was too sympathetic to the Pals, so he was ordered out by MSNBC. After a social media storm, he was allowed to stay in and continue reporting. When Rula Jabreal criticized US media coverage on MSNBC, she reported that shortly afterward all her contracts for future appearances were cancelled. There's plenty more to say on all these topics, but it would take too long. |
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Post by theevan on Jul 28, 2014 16:48:49 GMT -5
Speaking of the 'media war' then what of the coverage of the current conflict brought out by the Israeli ambassador? Was the statement by the UN Secy/Gen bogus?
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Post by patrick on Jul 28, 2014 16:52:54 GMT -5
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Post by patrick on Jul 28, 2014 16:55:03 GMT -5
Speaking of the 'media war' then what of the coverage of the current conflict brought out by the Israeli ambassador? Was the statement by the UN Secy/Gen bogus? That rockets were found in a school? It's happened. They've been found in other abandoned schools. (Under international law, that still doesn't justify blowing up an occupied school.) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 17:50:12 GMT -5
That was one of the most cogent analysis I have read regarding this crisis. Not that I like all the conclusions. The pure and simple truth is that one side is fighting "dirty" and another side is fighting a cleaner fight, but a necessary fight. . . . , Haven't read the article yet. But dirty or clean, the truth as we see it is not the truth everyone sees or believes. To flip over to the Ukrainian thing, the Russian citizenry doesn't believe what we say about who-fired-what-from-where. They have their own truth (as spun by Putin. But they WANT to believe it). And they don't trust us. They feel we (US) is out to corner them and have our views dominate world politics at the detriment to Russian interests. So they believe what they want to believe. And much the same goes for the people in Gaza. They don't blame Hamas. Our view seems right to us on the sidelines. But we bring our own bias and history and blinders to the table. But in the end might makes right.And history is written by the victors. |
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Post by godotwaits on Jul 28, 2014 18:46:35 GMT -5
History is also made by the perpetrators, dudes.
What the hell was the holocaust all about? Or did we all just make that up? Not trying to draw any parallels, per se, to this conflict, except, of course, that genocide is the outright objective of the Hamas! Doh!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 19:23:09 GMT -5
Israel's decades long effort to wipe out Palestinians continues unabated, their occupation and land-grabbing and economic blockade and slaughter will continue as it has for years. CNN and others will continue to report their propaganda.
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Post by RickW on Jul 28, 2014 19:23:42 GMT -5
Just to play devil's advocate, GW, because we all collectively felt so terrible about the holocaust, with good reason, we then stood by while the Palestinians were completely dispossessed of their land in return, and when they tried to fight back, supported the people who took it, and continue to take what little land they have left. Yes, they have been intransigent, but they have a hell of a lot of reasons to be so.
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Post by godotwaits on Jul 28, 2014 19:48:37 GMT -5
Can't really argue with your there, Rick. Israel is not without any culpability.
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