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Post by Chesapeake on Aug 28, 2014 19:22:16 GMT -5
We can scream and holler all we want, they're going to carve out a land bridge between themselves and Crimea, and that's that.
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Post by Chesapeake on Aug 28, 2014 19:27:50 GMT -5
I can't honestly say I blame Putin. They want land access to their naval base. If I were in his shoes I'd probably do the same thing. If he tries to occupy the whole Ukraine, that would be a different story. But let him have his land bridge, give him hell about it, and then move on.
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 28, 2014 19:32:44 GMT -5
Why do I hear echoes of the 30s and Chamberlain? I don't disagree about what to do at this point, Don, but I am concerned that Putin will develop an appetite for this sort of thing, and that could create big problems. I blame him. He's a very bad guy.
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Post by Russell Letson on Aug 28, 2014 19:33:14 GMT -5
What's he need land access for? It's a naval base--they got boats and stuff.
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Post by lar on Aug 28, 2014 19:49:27 GMT -5
I agree with Flake. Putin seems to have little or no respect for the sovereignty of the Ukraine and he's using flimsy pretexts to justify his actions. This sounds a lot like another one of history's very bad guys.
But who wants to be pulled into a world war over the Ukraine? So we sit on our hands. Then where to we draw the line?
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Post by Chesapeake on Aug 28, 2014 20:40:28 GMT -5
I also agree with Flake. I worry Putin won't stop at just a land bridge to Croatia, he might decide he wants the whole country. As bad as what's going on right now is, with tanks rolling south, that would be an order of magnitude worse. I kind of doubt he would do that, at least not overtly but who knows. He'll probably continue trying to destabilize the government and cause whatever mischief he can.
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Post by Chesapeake on Aug 28, 2014 20:48:13 GMT -5
And I actually do think there are some parallels to the-guy-we-can't-mention-'til-page-seven. Putin is a popular strongman who is coming in after his country lost a war (albeit a cold one), and he's promising a return to the glory days of yesteryear. I think that whatever happens in Ukraine, we are in for a bad time with him.
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Post by Village Idiot on Aug 28, 2014 21:37:19 GMT -5
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Post by Doug on Aug 28, 2014 21:42:28 GMT -5
Not our war. Not worth a single US life.
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Post by Village Idiot on Aug 28, 2014 21:46:41 GMT -5
I dont' think anyone's implying that, Doug. We might stupidly go to other places where we don't belong, but I can't imagine us getting involved with that. I agree with you, let Europe deal with it.
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Post by Chesapeake on Aug 28, 2014 21:47:11 GMT -5
I can't see any way the U.S. would get directly involved fighting Russians unless there were an attack on a NATO country. And that is virtually inconceivable.
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Post by RickW on Aug 28, 2014 21:48:57 GMT -5
No, not worth anyone's life. On top of that, Ukraine was never a country before. It was part of Russia for hundreds of years, and Russia was dismembered not that long ago. Yes, it's good that folks have their own homeland, but are the Khazaks, Uzbeks, White Russians, Ukrainians, etc., all better off for having departed? No, not really. They are being run by pisspot dictatorships, for the most part. The baltic states, well, they got to relive the short burst of freedom they had in the 30s, that's not such a bad thing.
Eastern Europe was freed of Russian dictatorship, countries that had a history of independence. The Cold War ended. That was good. Maybe the balance went a little too far.
The West does not have a single horse in the game in the Ukraine. Not one. The Europeans are the ones who should get pissy about it. Aside from crapping in Putins sandbox, what does the US gain? Nada.
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Post by Russell Letson on Aug 28, 2014 22:34:18 GMT -5
Rick, re: who owns/runs what patch of territory: Look up the history of Lithuania.
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Post by godotwaits on Aug 28, 2014 22:34:18 GMT -5
I gotta stand in line with the Flake point of view. Be very uncomfortable with appeasement. What is it Mark Twain said..? "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."
But I must admit that I am conflicted by both sides discussed here. And also on a personal level. A particularly unpleasant experience. I was physically assaulted late one night. By a character very similar to Putin. Think Russian. Think thug. (I know it would seem a stereotype) But it was true.
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Post by epaul on Aug 28, 2014 22:53:57 GMT -5
I'm with Putin. Hell, I wish we could put him in charge of our foreign policy.
Putin knew the "Arab Spring" was a farce, with the students just a pretty face to put in front of the Islamaassholes. And Putin had the good sense to support Assad, knowing what would happen if he was weakened and the Islamaassholes got a foothold. We should have stayed the heck out and supported Assad by doing nothing. Now, after the barn door has been ripped open and trampled, we are slowly beginning to back Assad, not that we will ever say so out loud.
Better open, ruthless, self-interest than completely confused idiocy.
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Post by epaul on Aug 28, 2014 23:04:59 GMT -5
Someone should be asking, what was the U.S. thinking when it started trying to sign up every new country bordering Russia into NATO?
WTF was up with that bonehead move? Of course Russia is going to react. NATO has one purpose, to fight Russia. Or contain them, your choice. Guess which one Russia would pick.
When the Iron Curtain fell, NATO should have been disbanded, its purpose over with. Instead the West did a tap dance on the Soviet grave and pushed through several humiliating deals, and then starting signing up new NATO members on Russia's doorstep. Why? For what purpose?
If you go too far in your "Victory" dance, you are just guaranteeing you will have to go through it all over again once the loser gets back on his feet. The seeds of war are planted in the celebration of peace.
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Post by RickW on Aug 28, 2014 23:58:23 GMT -5
Rick, re: who owns/runs what patch of territory: Look up the history of Lithuania. I know that. Then it became Poland. Which got dismantled by the Austrians, Prussians, and Russians. My point is that most of the former Russian republics, including Ukraine, Moldavia, Khazakstan, Uzbekistan, etc., are pretty much made up countries. I guess now that they are "free", they have a right to remain "free", but there is no longer history of "freedom" there. And nothing that should or would get our collective knickers in a knot to preserve them. I doubt they are any better off than they were under the USSR. We won the Cold War. We have allies all over Eastern Europe. |
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Post by Doug on Aug 29, 2014 1:24:14 GMT -5
I was going to go get quotes from Washington's Farewell Address so I read it *. He takes thousands of words to say don't have treatys they just get you involved in someone else's war. That's most of the second half of the address. Which isn't an address it's a letter.
*http://www.ourdocuments.gov/print_friendly.php?flash=true&page=transcript&doc=15&title=Transcript+of+President+George+Washington%27s+Farewell+Address+%281796%29
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Post by kenlarsson on Aug 29, 2014 8:32:17 GMT -5
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Post by kenlarsson on Aug 29, 2014 10:00:12 GMT -5
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