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Post by RickW on Oct 16, 2014 0:49:14 GMT -5
I have had online conversations with Chilibill where I was happy to hear what he said. But that level of conspiracy theory is what led me to drop him off Facebook.
I was also going to say, Cheney, that while it might have been true that those small places could be controlled, we are talking about banana republics with little or no security. Hell, if the US decided to close off a town, you guys would have a hell of a time - too many ways for people to come and go. So, some folks moved from those small towns to the big cities during those outbreaks, but it never took off.
The Hot Zone was definitely a depressing book to read, especially now.
As to health care workers getting sick, I read a sociology study years ago about the protective gear. The more "experienced", the more "juju" you have, (read doctors,) the less likely you are to wear it, or leave it partially done up. It's a weird thing - I'd be done up tighter than a straitjacket. But the one study I remember, had doctors treating infectious patients, and they had their masks on, but often tilted to only cover one nostril.
People are weird.
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Post by millring on Oct 16, 2014 6:52:57 GMT -5
The problem is that we're all putting ourselves in information cocoons. We hear what reinforces our views and tune out what doesn't. I'm not being judgmental from on high--as I said, I do it--but it makes me uncomfortable when I consider where this may take us as a society. We'll hear what we want to hear and disregard the rest, as Sophocles once said, according to the internet. There's a difference between ignoring the more demented or annoying comments of one's crazy relatives and acquaintances (or even friends) and sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "Nah nah nah I can't hear you" or only following sources that always and only confirm what you already believe to be true. We all filter what we pay attention to--it's all about where the levels are set--for reasonable signal to noise or just easy listening. (Somehow that last metaphor got mixed, but I'm too tired to put it in the centrifuge it and separate the components. Oh, drat--I just did another one.) I've found myself more inclined to block the posts of those whom one might assume seem to be cheerleading for things I agree with. I'm more discouraged by apparent misunderstandings rampant in the ideals I share than I am in the posts of those with whom I disagree up front.
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Post by Doug on Oct 16, 2014 6:56:54 GMT -5
Doug, do you think the President is importing ebola to create a crisis in order to strengthen the Federal Government's control over the people? No. I think it's a typical case of "never let a crisis go to waste" and it's not this president it's all of them. No point blaming conspiracy that can be explained by stupidity and avarice. It's a function of the organism called government.
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Post by millring on Oct 16, 2014 7:05:50 GMT -5
Doug, do you think the President is importing ebola to create a crisis in order to strengthen the Federal Government's control over the people? No. I think it's a typical case of "never let a crisis go to waste" and it's not this president it's all of them. No point blaming conspiracy that can be explained by stupidity and avarice. It's a function of the organism called government. Pretty good description. I might only add that, though there are many who do see conspiracies, most often these days it is just as common to find the accusation of "conspiracy" when that's not at all what is being claimed. (For instance, in pointing out media bias, the rebuttal is to ridicule the notion of a conspiracy when no such thing is being claimed.)
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Post by Marshall on Oct 16, 2014 7:22:04 GMT -5
. . . , We'll hear what we want to hear and disregard the rest, as Sophocles once said, according to the internet. Hunh! I thought that was Paul Simon.
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Post by fauxmaha on Oct 16, 2014 8:13:22 GMT -5
We have a Federal government with no bounds. From what our kids eat for lunch to the name of the Washington football team to the structure of our light bulbs to whether or not we pay cash for a new sofa to the steps necessary for a fifth-grader to work out 17 x 342, the Federal government is there.
And then we are surprised to discover that everything gets politicized?
How could it be otherwise?
Now the administration is scrambling to get in front of the politics of the ebola thing.
The experts assure us that Iraq has an active WMD program ....um.... that the Benghazi attacks were a spontaneous response to a YouTube video with 87 views ....um.... that if you like your insurance plan, you will be able to keep your insurance plan ....um.... that I did not have sex with that woman, not one time ....um.... that I did not draw a red line, the world drew a red line ....um.... that there was no political targeting at the IRS ....um.... that our borders now are more secure than they have ever been in history ....um.... that al Qaeda is on its heels, has been decimated ....um.... that the threat of an out of control ebola epidemic in the US is vanishingly small.
Very reassuring.
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Post by Cornflake on Oct 16, 2014 8:51:07 GMT -5
Marshall, the Sophocles thing was a feeble attempt at humor.
Russell, you're right, editing what one hears is somewhat inevitable. I have many relatives who start with assumptions about public policy that are very different from mine, and they pretty much deduce their specific views from those assumptions. After a while, there's nothing much to learn by reading what they say. I respect them and their views but I don't get anything out of reading the latest iteration.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Oct 16, 2014 10:50:10 GMT -5
The right has been calling for closing the borders. I can see the logic behind that, but I don't think it'll accomplish anything other than possibly delaying the spread if it's going to spread. What would make more sense from a containment perspective would be to quarantine the 3 countries that the virus is coming from. That approach would be even more problematic than closing our borders, but at least it'd be more likely to stop the spread while the infected and the soon-to-be-infected populations die off and the virus goes back into hiding.
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Post by patrick on Oct 16, 2014 11:25:06 GMT -5
We'll hear what we want to hear and disregard the rest, as Sophocles once said, according to the internet. Actually, I think that was Simon and Garfunkel. According to the nurse's union, the medical staff at Texas Presbyterian Hospital were not using ANY protective gear for the first two days after the index case was admitted. And the staff continued with their duties treating other patients. Texas Presbyterian is not exactly covering itself with glory in this situation. As for how infectious Ebola is, let me point out that the index case lived for a few weeks with his family here for a few weeks before being hospitalized, and I don't know of any of them who has come down with Ebola. Likewise anyone on planes, etc. in contact with any other US patient. There are two secondary cases, both health care workers who were treating the index case and were exposed to large amounts of body fluids, when he was most infectious. As for the protective gear, on CNN Sanjay Gupta (a practicing neurosurgeon) gowned up according to CDC protocols and then smeared chocolate sauce on his hands to simulate infectious blood. Then he attempted to ungown, and managed to get chocolate on his neck and face. If HE can't ungown without difficulty, I'm not surprised nurses without specific training could always do it properly. I could see some ways to improve that process that are not difficult or expensive.
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Post by Russell Letson on Oct 16, 2014 11:33:12 GMT -5
Yeah, Patrick, but you're, like, an expert or something. Why should we listen to you?
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Post by Chesapeake on Oct 16, 2014 12:03:04 GMT -5
Flake: That'll teach you to make fun of Sophocles.
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Post by Russell Letson on Oct 16, 2014 12:38:51 GMT -5
Euripides, Eumenides.
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Post by dickt on Oct 16, 2014 12:51:30 GMT -5
Flake: That'll teach you to make fun of Sophocles. My first guitar--a cheap nylon string came from Sophocles' (Papas) shop on Connecticut Ave.
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 16, 2014 12:58:05 GMT -5
We'll hear what we want to hear and disregard the rest, as Sophocles once said, according to the internet. Actually, I think that was Simon and Garfunkel. According to the nurse's union, the medical staff at Texas Presbyterian Hospital were not using ANY protective gear for the first two days after the index case was admitted. And the staff continued with their duties treating other patients. Texas Presbyterian is not exactly covering itself with glory in this situation. As for how infectious Ebola is, let me point out that the index case lived for a few weeks with his family here for a few weeks before being hospitalized, and I don't know of any of them who has come down with Ebola. Likewise anyone on planes, etc. in contact with any other US patient. There are two secondary cases, both health care workers who were treating the index case and were exposed to large amounts of body fluids, when he was most infectious. As for the protective gear, on CNN Sanjay Gupta (a practicing neurosurgeon) gowned up according to CDC protocols and then smeared chocolate sauce on his hands to simulate infectious blood. Then he attempted to ungown, and managed to get chocolate on his neck and face. If HE can't ungown without difficulty, I'm not surprised nurses without specific training could always do it properly. I could see some ways to improve that process that are not difficult or expensive. This kind of thing is even more discomforting. As it turns out the first ebola patient to walk into the country managed to find every single hole in the vaunted system that is supposed to keep us safe. He happened to go to a hospital that is much like most of the other hospitals in the country and not the 4 equipped specifically to handle stuff like this (with their overwhelming allotment of something like 23 beds). Nobody recognized where he came from. He was sent home when nobody recognized his symptoms. 2 nurses caught it because the precautions failed. The second nurse apparently told the CDC that she was running a fever and she was still allowed to get on a plane. Every damn hole in the system. Of course, now we've got a form that asks if you've ever been to a west African country. I'm sure that will solve things. But never worry, the same experts that said the system couldn't be beat also say that the odds of catching it are remote. They're probably the same experts that figured the levies would hold during Katrina.
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Post by Marshall on Oct 16, 2014 15:27:32 GMT -5
Marshall, the Sophocles thing was a feeble attempt at humor. So was Paul Simon. I heard that the "La, la, la" parts in The Boxer were supposed to be a chorus, but, try as he might, Simon couldn't come up with any lyrics that worked. So he finally gave up and they just sang "La, la, la."
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Post by millring on Oct 16, 2014 15:28:40 GMT -5
la, la, la, la, la-la-la
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Post by fauxmaha on Oct 16, 2014 15:57:33 GMT -5
As for the protective gear, on CNN Sanjay Gupta (a practicing neurosurgeon) gowned up according to CDC protocols and then smeared chocolate sauce on his hands to simulate infectious blood. Then he attempted to ungown, and managed to get chocolate on his neck and face. If HE can't ungown without difficulty, I'm not surprised nurses without specific training could always do it properly. I could see some ways to improve that process that are not difficult or expensive. At the risk of exposing my view that we have a president incapable of managerial competence, I think that last bit misses the mark by quite a bit. Its one thing to say "if we have the right gloves and masks and hazmat suits and all the rest, and then know how to use them correctly, then the risk of infection is effectively eliminated". That's the easy part. The hard part is promulgating that protocol and the required equipment/supplies/training to the thousands of places where it needs to be. Here's a thought experiment: The protocol is in place. We know how to avoid ebola contagion. Now we have to hire the guy who will be in charge of implementing that protocol across a continent-wide, national health network. We have three candidates for the job. President Obama, Hillary Clinton and Mitt Romney. Who do you hire?
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Post by millring on Oct 16, 2014 16:04:08 GMT -5
Here's a thought experiment: The protocol is in place. We know how to avoid ebola contagion. Now we have to hire the guy who will be in charge of implementing that protocol across a continent-wide, national health network. We have three candidates for the job. President Obama, Hillary Clinton and Mitt Romney. Who do you hire? Hilary.
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Post by millring on Oct 16, 2014 16:14:25 GMT -5
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Post by Fingerplucked on Oct 16, 2014 16:38:22 GMT -5
It doesn't have to be done all at once. We currently have four hospitals that are equipped: one in Nebraska, one in Atlanta, and two others someplace. I don't know how many people the CDC has available to train hospitals, but I think I'd start with a small team at three or four strategically located hospitals and make damn sure everything is in place before moving on to the next three or four locations.
Not every hospital needs to be equipped to handle Ebola. They only need to be able to screen for possible victims, and then refer those people to the nearest hospital that is equipped. It wouldn't take long to have a fully functional hospital in the northeast, southeast, upper and lower midwest, and north/south west. From there they could just keep filling in the blanks until every major metropolitan center has at least one facility.
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