|
Post by drlj on Aug 3, 2015 14:33:54 GMT -5
Potters gonna irritate.
|
|
|
Post by millring on Aug 3, 2015 14:38:42 GMT -5
I feel the love.
|
|
|
Post by drlj on Aug 3, 2015 14:41:17 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by millring on Aug 3, 2015 14:42:05 GMT -5
Kootchies gonna koo.
|
|
|
Post by drlj on Aug 3, 2015 14:46:47 GMT -5
Carburetors gonna carburate. Starters gonna start. Pistons gonna work smoothly.
|
|
|
Post by fauxmaha on Aug 3, 2015 14:52:27 GMT -5
There once was a man from Nantucket...
|
|
|
Post by patrick on Aug 3, 2015 15:42:18 GMT -5
If you let the douchenozzles of the world kill them all, the locals have nothing. Which, if you'll re-read Jeff's post, is a point he made. The locals AND the officials who line their pockets with game hunting money. Kill all the lions and nobody wins. That doesn't square with because it isn't the douchebag dentists who are supporting the continued existence of the lions. And it isn't the hunters who give them the greatest value, its the ecotourists who collectively pay much more to see lions than do hunters. I see nothing in douchebag dentist's hunting that ensures the continued survival of the lions. There's also the continued assumption, without any evidence in this case, of corrupt officials being involved.
|
|
|
Post by millring on Aug 3, 2015 16:00:37 GMT -5
Patricks gonna pat.
|
|
|
Post by fauxmaha on Aug 3, 2015 16:22:54 GMT -5
The day after the last lion is poached in Africa, there will still be eco-tourism. But no more dentists getting fleeced for $50k a pop.
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Aug 3, 2015 16:36:16 GMT -5
The claim that it is either hunting or eco-tourism is a false dichotomy. Both can be in place, and if both are, there is more money associated with lion preservation in Africa. And if there is more money connected with lion preservation, there will be greater interest in expanding safe habitat for lions and more money for setting aside and maintaining these sanctuaries.
The population of lions in Africa is not threatened by hunters, the population of lions is threatened by shrinking habitat due to the expansion of human civilization and all that it entails. It is biologically baseless to claim otherwise. And the proposition that rich privileged hunters are killing off all the lions so that all us ordinary folk will never get to see one certainly shares some border areas with demagoguery.
When the emotional dust has settled and topic is no longer centered on a rich dentist no one likes, it would be interesting to have a wildlife biologist familiar with this particular game park interviewed. On the topic of Cecil's cubs, my informed guess (informed by nearly every documentary the BBC has done on wildlife in general and lions in particular) is that his answer would be, with or without Cecil, the odds of those cubs surviving into adulthood is low. That game park can only support so many lions, that is a fact. There are only so many apartments and they are all occupied. When lion cubs are weaned, they have to find a spot, a place. And that means an older lion has to die, either naturally or at the hands, er, paws, of a younger lion that is able to knock the old bugger off. Failing to find an apartment on the rez, the young lion wanders off into farmland and suburb and discovers why the sanctuary was set up in the first place.*
Life in nature isn't easy. The available habit can only support a given number of lions, call that number "X". X + Y will always be the number lions present (with "Y" representing the surplus population, usually the very old and the very young. And those are the facts of the matter. Habitat rules. And lion habitat costs money. The more money that is associated with the lion population, the more interest there will be in preserving and expanding that population. Eco-tourism is money. Eco-tourism plus hunting is more money. More money, more lions.
*Translation: If thirty lion cubs were born this year in that game park, probably seven or eight would survive into a secure adulthood. If Cecil's seven cubs are eaten, that just improves the odds for the remainders. That's how it works. Nature ain't Disney.
|
|
|
Post by Doug on Aug 3, 2015 16:45:39 GMT -5
I think if I were either an ecotourist or a hunter I'd be going to South Africa not Zimbabwe. After googling a bunch of stuff. Looks like Zimbabwe isn't safe for either.
So I just grabbed some numbers from South Africa. Cost to not hunt $650 per day - ecotourist Cost to hunt $650 per day plus Game Prices:
BIG FIVE
Lion Male $25,000
Lion Female $8,000
White Lion Male $30,000
Elephant $40,000
Cape Buffalo $15,000
Rhino $125,000 if available Leopard $35,000
PLAINS GAME
Cape Eland $2,500
Red Lechwe $3,500
Nyala $3,500
Southern Greater Kudu $2,500
Gems buck $1,300
Blue Wildebeest $1,100
Black Wildebeest $1,100
Red Hartebeest $1,100
Bontebuck $3,000
Waterbuck $2,500
Burchell Zebra $1,500
Common Blesbuck $450
White Blesbuck $800
Common Springbuck $380
Black Springbuck $600
Impala $450
Sable $10,000
Roan $10,000
Reedbuck $800
Caracal $500
Jackal free
Ostrich $600
Steen buck $550
Grey Duiker $550
Giraffe $8,000
White Springbuck $1,200
Copper Springbuck $1,600
Hartmann Zebra $2,500
Warthog $400
So if you wanted to hunt the big 5 it would be $240,000 + $4550(daily fees) + transportation vs ecotourist $4550 + transportation. So one big 5 hunter = 54 ecotourist. Transportation ~$1500 tourist class round trip + hotel when you get there and leave plus food and drinks before you are picked up for safari. My guess that if you are spending $250k for the hunting that you aren't flying tourist and you aren't staying in a cheap hotel.
Personally the only one of the big 5 I would hunt would be Cape Buffalo, but I might enjoy hunting some of the plains animals which run from $400 to $3500.
South Africa seems to have a good reputation for rolling hunting fees into conservation. Like in the US hunters are the ones supporting conservation.
|
|
|
Post by Doug on Aug 3, 2015 16:55:34 GMT -5
Raise your hand if you have paid to support conservation. Bought a hunting or fishing licence. Bought a gun or ammunition. Belong to Ducks Unlimited. Those taxes and fees are what supports conservation.
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Aug 3, 2015 18:51:20 GMT -5
What do the ordinary people of Zimbabwe think about Cecil and the Dentist? Are they outraged? Or don't they give a shit because they have huge problems concerning their own survival and some lion that was shot somewhere means nothing to them? The answer you get will depend on which story you are reading and what the writer of that story wants you to think. I have read both, the ones I find most convincing indicate that the average Zimbabwean isn't at all concerned about some lion being shot, they have far more pressing concerns (the country and economy have completely collapsed and the government is a corrupt, self-enriching, mess). Some lion shot somewhere accounts for about as much as a dead raccoon on country rd. 59. But, someone else may find another story more convincing, one that has the average Zimbabwean shedding tears and plunged in misery and outrage over the murder of a national treasure by some rich plundering American poacher. The writer creates the story and picks the quotes (even prompts them) I was looking for another story about "the average Zimbabwean" I read in the Tribune earlier this week. Didn't find it, but this piece is close: www.startribune.com/life-in-zimbabwe-forgive-our-lack-of-concern-for-cecil-the-hero/320534192/
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Aug 3, 2015 19:02:19 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by dradtke on Aug 3, 2015 21:15:13 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Aug 3, 2015 23:44:58 GMT -5
On the other hand, just because it is possible, and even desirable, to manage a hunt in lion country doesn't mean the hunt will be managed well or responsibly. Hwange Park is about the size of New Jersey, which is a pretty good sized preserve. And it appears that it is surrounded by some pretty good-sized farms that are managed for game species, as well.
If our wildlife biologists come to conclusion that Zimbabwe is managing its game species in way that is deemed reckless and not biologically sound, it is well within our right to ban our citizens from hunting there (and I'm sure Europe would join in). And if merited (by our standards) we can toss the lion on the endangered species list or a watch list of some type. It doesn't have to fair or reasonable or anything else, we can just do if we want to. Arbitrary? Yep. Unfair to Zimbabwe? Who gives a shit.
But, I hope any decisions this country makes in this regard is based on a pragmatic biological appraisal made by pragmatic biologists not by PETA hotheads and the emotion driven.
Bottom line, the more value the lion has to Africa, the greater its chances, and the chances of its prey buddies, for survival in an increasingly crowded, resource stretched world. Done responsibly, hunting does add to that value. If it can't be done right, then to hell with it.
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on Aug 4, 2015 7:49:50 GMT -5
BIG FIVE Lion Male $25,000 Lion Female $8,000 White Lion Male $30,000 Elephant $40,000 Cape Buffalo $15,000 Rhino $125,000 if available Leopard $35,000 PLAINS GAME Cape Eland $2,500 Red Lechwe $3,500 Nyala $3,500 Southern Greater Kudu $2,500 Gems buck $1,300 Blue Wildebeest $1,100 Black Wildebeest $1,100 Red Hartebeest $1,100 Bontebuck $3,000 Waterbuck $2,500 Burchell Zebra $1,500 Common Blesbuck $450 White Blesbuck $800 Common Springbuck $380 Black Springbuck $600 Impala $450 Sable $10,000 Roan $10,000 Reedbuck $800 Caracal $500 Jackal free Ostrich $600 Steen buck $550 Grey Duiker $550 Giraffe $8,000 White Springbuck $1,200 Copper Springbuck $1,600 Hartmann Zebra $2,500 Warthog $400 I'll take 2 jackal, please.
|
|
|
Post by majorminor on Aug 4, 2015 7:51:07 GMT -5
Where's the outrage!?
Now I'm not supporting this Cecil fiasco so don't start saying bad things about my mom, but can the locals hunt and eat these animals? If not don't they get the meat? Jackal aside I'm guessing a lot of those plains animals are right tasty being pretty much deer with foofy antlers and all.
|
|
|
Post by fauxmaha on Aug 4, 2015 9:16:42 GMT -5
The jackals are being insulted.
|
|
|
Post by patrick on Aug 4, 2015 9:35:39 GMT -5
But I have to be careful who and where. Don't ask how I learned that.
|
|