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Post by Lonnie on Jan 18, 2016 13:56:02 GMT -5
I'm kinda with Bruce on this one (oh, my stars and garters, did I say that? ?) Pot should be legal. I heard from a friend of mine who has smoked pot all his life and recently given it up, that the stuff they're selling now is crap compared to the good shit he used to do... ...but heroin and other heavyweights... decriminalize possession of up to "x" amount so that those who want help can get it without fear, but nix on the legalization... I can hear too many voices saying, "Dang, always wanted to try that... just once."
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Post by brucemacneill on Jan 18, 2016 15:30:29 GMT -5
Wow, even sort of agreeing with me is enough to shut the Soundhole down for at least an hour and a half. No posts on anything since your post, Lonnie.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2016 16:24:24 GMT -5
I think that none of this stuff should ever have been made illegal in the first place. I have a hunch that we wouldn't have anywhere near the type of problems we have today if that course had have been followed. However, since prohibition and mass proliferation, there is no easy solution. Once Pandora's box is opened, it is very difficult to get everything back into it. As far as pot goes, I'm more for decriminalization than legalization and taxation.
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Post by brucemacneill on Jan 18, 2016 16:35:51 GMT -5
I think that none of this stuff should ever have been made illegal in the first place. I have a hunch that we wouldn't have anywhere near the type of problems we have today if that course had have been followed. However, since prohibition and mass proliferation, there is no easy solution. Once Pandora's box is opened, it is very difficult to get everything back into it. As far as pot goes, I'm more for decriminalization than legalization and taxation. Correct me if you can but as I understand it there is no one in jail for simple possession of pot. There may be some who were charged with dealing but bargained down to possession and IMHO that doesn't count. They are dealers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 8:24:32 GMT -5
I think that none of this stuff should ever have been made illegal in the first place. I have a hunch that we wouldn't have anywhere near the type of problems we have today if that course had have been followed. However, since prohibition and mass proliferation, there is no easy solution. Once Pandora's box is opened, it is very difficult to get everything back into it. As far as pot goes, I'm more for decriminalization than legalization and taxation. Correct me if you can but as I understand it there is no one in jail for simple possession of pot. There may be some who were charged with dealing but bargained down to possession and IMHO that doesn't count. They are dealers. I imagine you're right as far as that goes but I don't see what that has to do with what I said. Are you saying it's already legal? It's not going away and if people want weed, someone's going to sell it. You'd prefer the government? I prefer farmers or allowing people to grow whatever they'd like in their gardens. It's time to treat it more like beer and less like heroin.
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Post by brucemacneill on Jan 19, 2016 8:32:31 GMT -5
Correct me if you can but as I understand it there is no one in jail for simple possession of pot. There may be some who were charged with dealing but bargained down to possession and IMHO that doesn't count. They are dealers. I imagine you're right as far as that goes but I don't see what that has to do with what I said. Are you saying it's already legal? It's not going away and if people want weed, someone's going to sell it. You'd prefer the government? I prefer farmers or allowing people to grow whatever they'd like in their gardens. It's time to treat it more like beer and less like heroin. No, I'm just one of those poor ill-informed fools who think it's a gateway drug.
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Post by drlj on Jan 19, 2016 8:36:20 GMT -5
Wow, even sort of agreeing with me is enough to shut the Soundhole down for at least an hour and a half. No posts on anything since your post, Lonnie. I actually passed out on the kitchen floor for about an hour. I must have read the response too quickly and it caused the oxygen in my brain to shoot too quickly out through my ears.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 8:46:03 GMT -5
I imagine you're right as far as that goes but I don't see what that has to do with what I said. Are you saying it's already legal? It's not going away and if people want weed, someone's going to sell it. You'd prefer the government? I prefer farmers or allowing people to grow whatever they'd like in their gardens. It's time to treat it more like beer and less like heroin. No, I'm just one of those poor ill-informed fools who think it's a gateway drug. I certainly didn't call you a fool but I'm not sure why you've formed that opinion. I know a lot of people who have smoked pot without ever going through that gate. In fact, I don't know any who have even tried heroin. I know every single one had a beer before they ever had a toke, however. Even so, correlation is not causation. Has your experience been different?
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Post by brucemacneill on Jan 19, 2016 9:15:37 GMT -5
No, I'm just one of those poor ill-informed fools who think it's a gateway drug. I certainly didn't call you a fool but I'm not sure why you've formed that opinion. I know a lot of people who have smoked pot without ever going through that gate. In fact, I don't know any who have even tried heroin. I know every single one had a beer before they ever had a toke, however. Even so, correlation is not causation. Has your experience been different? That was sarcasm, Tom. All the heroin addicts I know, at least the people I know are heroin addicts, started using illegal drugs with pot, not counting underage drinking of beer and smoking of cigarettes which I'm sure was in there too. I never tried the stuff. Never got past the alcohol and cigarettes, myself. Never thought much of the people who did. In any case, it's personal choice as long as you're ready for the consequences. I just hate to see them blaming others for their choices as they slowly fall apart.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 10:10:55 GMT -5
I certainly didn't call you a fool but I'm not sure why you've formed that opinion. I know a lot of people who have smoked pot without ever going through that gate. In fact, I don't know any who have even tried heroin. I know every single one had a beer before they ever had a toke, however. Even so, correlation is not causation. Has your experience been different? That was sarcasm, Tom. All the heroin addicts I know, at least the people I know are heroin addicts, started using illegal drugs with pot, not counting underage drinking of beer and smoking of cigarettes which I'm sure was in there too. I never tried the stuff. Never got past the alcohol and cigarettes, myself. Never thought much of the people who did. In any case, it's personal choice as long as you're ready for the consequences. I just hate to see them blaming others for their choices as they slowly fall apart. Saying that all heroin addicts smoked pot first ignores that fact that the vast majority of pot smokers do not go on to use heroin. I think there is a better argument that the fact of their illegality makes them fellow travellers in some circles. I also think that misrepresenting the "dangers" of pot use makes some young people think, after trying it, well this is pretty mundane, how bad can cocaine or heroin be?
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Post by Doug on Jan 19, 2016 10:27:01 GMT -5
All prohibitions increase use and create criminal organizations to supply the prohibited object. Unintended consequence, supporting prohibitions is supporting increased use and criminal organizations.
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Post by Dub on Jan 19, 2016 11:05:53 GMT -5
I didn't see the 60 Minutes episode with Penn but here are some rambling thoughts.
I'm no expert and really have had very little personal experience with drugs. As kids in the 1950s we smoked cigarettes and drank beer and any harder drink we could get our hands on. We'd been taught that even a casual brush with marijuana would doom us to a downward spiral of addiction and crime. But we discovered that certain nose inhalers contained Benzedrine and learned how to avail ourselves of that pleasure. I was in my 20s (barely) before trying marijuana and found that to be another pleasurable substance. During the 1960s and ’70s I smoked weed off and on and knew lots of other people who did. I knew people who harvested Iowa ditch weed for shipment to San Francisco and people who maintained weed gardens of high quality, polyploidal, ganja. I never grew any of my own but I think I still have a copy of the grower's guide somewhere. I also tried cocaine a couple of times but never understood the lure of that one. With the exception of tobacco, all my "substance" experience has been social. I don't recall ever doing any of it alone. I don't even drink beer alone as a rule. It's now been at least thirty-five years since I've used any recreational drugs other than alcohol and caffeine. I've only known a couple of people whom I knew used heroin and they are long dead.
I don't really understand addiction and don't pretend to. I've read that tobacco is more addicting than heroin. I have no way to verify that but I've seen it published often enough that some "experts" must think it's true. I know I was able to kick my long (15 years) tobacco addiction all at once with a single decision. I suspect some people are less prone to addiction than others and I am one of the lucky ones. For that I am forever grateful. My heart goes out to all those who find it so difficult to turn away from addiction.
With all that, I believe the US war on drugs was wrong from the start and has been a complete disaster for our country and many other countries as well. Mexico, Central and South America have been devastated by US policy and many eastern countries too. It has filled our prisons and improvised large segments of our own population. Permitting the US population to use "substances" as they choose could not possibly be more devastating than the war on drugs has been. If drugs were turned into commercial products we would save all the money the "war" is costing and the tax revenue would provide funding for programs to aid users. We would remove the motive for illegal drug production and supply and allow other countries the chance to set their societies aright once again. On top of the economic and social advantages of ending the war on drugs, we could control the quality of the available drugs so that the dangers inherent in drug use are limited to drugs themselves and not poisons introduced by black market suppliers.
Fiddlerina and I happened to watch Ken Burns’ documentary, “Prohibition” last week on Netflix. The film makes clear what a stupid idea prohibition was and how it produced not only a nation of scofflaws but an organized crime industry as well. I couldn't help thinking how our war on drugs is operating in much the same way. The main difference being that we enforce the law more aggressively and incarcerate many more people. El Chapo and his ilk are an evil scourge on a huge segment of the human race but he exists because of US policy.
Law enforcement professionals, politicians, and clergy all know the war on drugs is a huge failure. The war continues because few of those people are willing to discuss it honestly in public.
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Post by fauxmaha on Jan 19, 2016 11:26:01 GMT -5
My desired drug policy is simple: I don't want one. At all. No drug should require a prescription. No drug should be illegal.
I've never had any desire to take heroin (or is it "Heroin"?), and don't have any plans to, but I've heard multiple, well informed people say things along the lines of "I'd far rather be addicted to Heroin than be an alcoholic".
Not that that matters much. I just don't see this as any of my business, and I think the manifest social dysfunction (ie, the entirety of our drug-related crime, which is largely all of our crime) we have come to regard as "normal" is anything but.
Bruce, I'd ask you to look more deeply into this issue. I get that heroin addiction has effected your family, and that is tragic, but when you look at the roots of prohibition, I believe you will find that nothing about it is consistent with your view of proper government action.
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Post by RickW on Jan 19, 2016 16:09:46 GMT -5
And I'm agreeing with Jeff. I would say however that the sale of said drugs should, like alcohol, be restricted by age.
Two things - heroin addiction is not debilitating. It doesn't harm. People can function. Most addicts problem is that they have to steal or prostitute themselves to pay for the habit, they have wildly differing strengths of drugs, or they pick up diseases from dirty needles, bad drugs, or as prostitutes. I also think that people who become serious drug addicts are like people who become serious alcoholics - they have other issues in their lives that drive them into it, and a tendency to head there, anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 16:29:58 GMT -5
Rick, I'd have to disagree that heroin isn't debilitating. What have you read to inform that position? I'd be interested in reading it, because the notion is well outside of "conventional wisdom" and anecdotal evidence.
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Post by brucemacneill on Jan 19, 2016 16:31:00 GMT -5
The article I posted, whether anyone read it I don't know, just points out that in the U.S:
"That means 5,927 people died after using heroin in 2012 and that number jumped to 8,260 deaths in 2013. Those are the latest numbers available."
You really think it would be less if it was legal? Why would you think that?
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Post by RickW on Jan 19, 2016 17:06:45 GMT -5
Rick, I'd have to disagree that heroin isn't debilitating. What have you read to inform that position? I'd be interested in reading it, because the notion is well outside of "conventional wisdom" and anecdotal evidence. The vast majority of health problems caused by heroin come from diseases such as hepatitis and aids from dirty needles, or the crap that it's cut with. There is some evidence of liver damage. There is the risk of overdose, also, but again, that comes from people buying street drugs that have no labels on them saying how strong that dose is. One thing I did read somewhere is that as people age, they tend to drop their heroin additions gradually. Keith Richards is a former junkie. I can always stand to be corrected, of course.
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Post by Doug on Jan 19, 2016 17:07:34 GMT -5
The article I posted, whether anyone read it I don't know, just points out that in the U.S: "That means 5,927 people died after using heroin in 2012 and that number jumped to 8,260 deaths in 2013. Those are the latest numbers available." You really think it would be less if it was legal? Why would you think that? Just a guess but I'd say more than 8000 of those deaths were due to bad drugs (cut with garbage).
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Post by RickW on Jan 19, 2016 17:17:33 GMT -5
A lot is overdose deaths. Sure it would be less, as the quality would be controlled. Along with, as Doug says, not having rat poison or wallboard filler mixed in.
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Post by brucemacneill on Jan 19, 2016 18:10:13 GMT -5
OK, so you didn't read the article.
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