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Post by fauxmaha on Jul 6, 2017 14:20:16 GMT -5
Jeff, I'll grant you have a point, but regardless, people do what they want to do, mostly. I attend to my morality because it's what I want to do, it's what I think is right, and that is its own reward. It has nothing to do with any religion, other than the belief that we are all in this thing together, and everything is connected. Mike Not to belabor the point, but my thesis is that "what you want to do" is largely something that is derived from the Christian environment you have lived in your entire life. You don't have to be explicitly "Christian", and you can even reject Christianity as a belief system, but it's still the thing that has guided Western cultural attitudes for centuries. And the "wealth, comfort and safety" of Japan? (Aside from the fallout from the not-so-recent Unpleasantness, of course. State Shinto had a role there, I suppose.) Israel? Oh, I know, Judeo-Christian culture, as various First-Amendment-challenged politicians love to put it. ("America has always been a Christian nation." Don't kid yourself about what that's code for, Hobby Lobby shoppers.) Oh, come on. (A) I never said that Christianity was an exclusive path. All I've said is that is has been our path. (B) The poke at "Judeo-Christianity"...well, you of all people know better than that. There is really no separating the two. Your antipathy toward formal Christianity is either blinding you to my (entirely obvious, I would think) point, or you are being contrary for it's own sake.
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Post by Russell Letson on Jul 6, 2017 14:46:14 GMT -5
"Derived from" is distinct from "encoded in"--the former asserts generation or origination, which is at minimum an optimistic assertion. And even derivation is an open process, so from what, one might ask, is Christian morality derived? And Jewish morality before that?
BTW: "There is really no separating the two." Ask the 15th-century conversos about that. For starters.
My antipathy is toward Christian exceptionalism--and its cousins in all the other belief systems, particularly those rooted in some flavor of revelation. But then, I am a secular materialist, and a fairly rigorous one, and like the guy in "The Merry Minuet," I don't like anybody very much.
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Post by fauxmaha on Jul 6, 2017 14:55:31 GMT -5
"Derived from" is distinct from "encoded in"--the former asserts generation or origination, which is at minimum an optimistic assertion. And even derivation is an open process, so from what, one might ask, is Christian morality derived? And Jewish morality before that? BTW: "There is really no separating the two." Ask the 15th-century conversos about that. For starters. My antipathy is toward Christian exceptionalism--and its cousins in all the other belief systems, particularly those rooted in some flavor of revelation. But then, I am a secular materialist, and a fairly rigorous one, and like the guy in "The Merry Minuet," I don't like anybody very much. While I'm certainly up for defending the idea that Christianity is exceptional vis-a-vis any number of alternative thought systems, you'll note that I've made no such argument here. As for the rest, all I can say is that the very way your mind works, the way you approach issues, is a direct of Aristotelian tradition as promulgated into our time through Augustinian/Thomastic philosophy. There's no escaping it.
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,904
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Post by Dub on Jul 6, 2017 15:29:03 GMT -5
Great fiddle and guitar strings, for sure.
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Post by Russell Letson on Jul 6, 2017 15:30:46 GMT -5
O O O, that Aristotelian rag, it's so elegant, so fucking Greek. Not a Christian in sight back then, and I have carefully scrubbed my own (admittedly inherited) set of all the outdated metaphysics and apologetical bolt-ons and put it in the toolbox along with chunks of Enlightenment gear (all metric, doncha know) and a few shims and wedges leftover from fixing half-assed repairs done by Marxist literary techs (some useful analytical stuff there but crap for from-the-ground-up builds) and a newish and ever-evolving bunch of diagrams and flowcharts and troubleshooting protocols from my more scientifical pals. I see all kinds of brand-names and trademarks on this gear, but not much unanimity of supplier. (Even some Asian stuff--don't know how that got in there.)
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Post by Marshall on Jul 6, 2017 16:52:27 GMT -5
"Derived from" is distinct from "encoded in"--the former asserts generation or origination, which is at minimum an optimistic assertion. And even derivation is an open process, so from what, one might ask, is Christian morality derived? And Jewish morality before that? BTW: "There is really no separating the two." Ask the 15th-century conversos about that. For starters. My antipathy is toward Christian exceptionalism--and its cousins in all the other belief systems, particularly those rooted in some flavor of revelation. But then, I am a secular materialist, and a fairly rigorous one, and like the guy in "The Merry Minuet," I don't like anybody very much. While I'm certainly up for defending the idea that Christianity is exceptional vis-a-vis any number of alternative thought systems, you'll note that I've made no such argument here. As for the rest, all I can say is that the very way your mind works, the way you approach issues, is a direct of Aristotelian tradition as promulgated into our time through Augustinian/Thomastic philosophy. There's no escaping it. I read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Repair," and I'm a Phaedrus follower.
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Post by millring on Jul 6, 2017 17:50:48 GMT -5
Hey, I'm one those masses No, you're not.
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Post by millring on Jul 6, 2017 17:53:40 GMT -5
I say again: Religion is does not generate morality, it encodes it. And it is not the only encoding mechanism available. But so far (in history) each time yours has been tried, it's resulted in mass genocide. Atheism and secularism is going to have to figure out some way to "encode" that doesn't require submission under penalty of death.
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Post by Marshall on Jul 6, 2017 18:18:50 GMT -5
I can never see Russell as a mass murderer.
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Post by millring on Jul 6, 2017 18:19:58 GMT -5
I can never see Russell as a mass murderer. Me neither.
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Post by Russell Letson on Jul 9, 2017 0:31:37 GMT -5
I haven't been to mass in decades.
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Post by millring on Jul 9, 2017 5:00:12 GMT -5
...and your hat's on crooked too.
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Post by theevan on Jul 9, 2017 15:09:33 GMT -5
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Post by Marshall on Jul 9, 2017 17:17:20 GMT -5
**sigh**
Yeah, but how many people were standing by watching the whole thing and taking video, yet nobody tried to help the guy whose bike was being stolen.
That's the saddest lesson. The Karma thing was just a random occurrence.
Plus the perp gets up and walks away. The bike is probably ruined.
As Trump would say, "Sad. Very sad."
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Post by theevan on Jul 9, 2017 17:42:43 GMT -5
**sigh** Yeah, but how many people were standing by watching the whole thing and taking video, yet nobody tried to help the guy whose bike was being stolen. That's the saddest lesson. The Karma thing was just a random occurrence. Plus the perp gets up and walks away. The bike is probably ruined. As Trump would say, "Sad. Very sad." Then he beats on the guy's truck with a crutch. WTF?
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Post by Doug on Jul 9, 2017 17:59:48 GMT -5
That got me too. The big guy taking video was plenty big enough to butt in. Around here that might get you shot. By the old guy with the bike or by one of the old guys standing around. As a bystander I wouldn't have shot the thug but if I was the one being assaulted that might be different. Bystander butting in might find a lot of liability questions. As a bystander I might risk the liability of firing a shot in the ground.
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Post by epaul on Jul 9, 2017 18:08:56 GMT -5
The craziness isn't limited to New Orleans. Last Saturday night the Maki Boys got their mugs mixed up and accused each other of beer theft. The only way to settle aggrieved honor was to arrange a "Belly Bounce" at twenty paces. Think of a medieval jousting match, only without horses or lances, just two roaring Makis charging with their bull bellies front and forward.
We tried post it on YouTube but they pulled the plug on us.
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Post by theevan on Jul 9, 2017 20:26:16 GMT -5
The craziness isn't limited to New Orleans. Last Saturday night the Maki Boys got their mugs mixed up and accused each other of beer theft. The only way to settle aggrieved honor was to arrange a "Belly Bounce" at twenty paces. Think of a medieval jousting match, only without horses or lances, just two roaring Makis charging with their bull bellies front and forward. We tried post it on YouTube but they pulled the plug on us. Dang.
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