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Post by Russell Letson on Oct 17, 2017 11:50:44 GMT -5
First--Jeff, you might want to decide whether it was the beard-and-ponytail or the "whole kerfuffle" that constituted a "thumb in the eye" of "a large number of Americans." And while it opens me to accusations of race-baiting, for how many of that "large number" were offended by the sight of a blackish man in the Rose Garden at all? Some "optics" are not fixable. And some situations are not offense-proof: Do a public appearance with the parents and risk offending the short-hair end of the culture. Don't do one and seem to be disrespecting a military family. With an extra helping of accusation-of-cynical-manipulation either way. Why does Trump lie--or at the very least, pass along highly questionable notions with a "some people say" or "so I heard"? Partly because he doesn't know much--he's famously indifferent to facts and impatient of what it takes to get them right. And partly because he's a salesman, with an instrumental and tactical attitude toward truthiness. What does it take to win an argument, to put down an impertinent questioner, to wring a concession out of the other side in a deal? And what stick can he wield when he needs a to take a quick whack at someone who offends his delicate sense of self? His whole life is a session of yo-mamma. About some of those who belong to the "large number of" of offended Americans: I followed a Mother Jones piece to a National Review piece by Kevin Drum, who offers a conservative's view of Trump's core constituency and the means by which it is kept stirred up. Drum writes, "I have never in my adult life seen such anger." I must be older, because I have: in the Vietnam war years, when I lived in rural southern Illinois and encountered the attitudes of the bigoted know-nothings who detested niggers and hippies and faggots and pointy-headed professors and just loved the war against the gooks. They were more pro-war than the many returning vets that were all over campus, and more likely to kick some hippie faggot's ass, given half a chance. I see some of that rage-of-the-yahoos right now, because it has never entirely left American life. www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/10/donald-trump-and-the-rage-of-rural-voters/www.nationalreview.com/article/452618/donald-trump-twitter-damaging-republican-character |
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Post by fauxmaha on Oct 17, 2017 11:51:31 GMT -5
I've got no particular affection for Trump. But I do think he is the symptom, not the problem. I started a thread on this a year and a half ago. Re-reading my opening post today, I think it stands the test of time rather well. Actually, I think it more than stands the test of time. That thread pre-dates Hillary's "deplorables" comment, and the "resistance" and all the rest. So far, I see no evidence that an enthusiastic Trump supporter shouldn't conclude that he was exactly right from the start: He is considered loathsome and deplorable and contemptible and is entirely devalued as a human being. His opinions/dreams/aspirations mean nothing. The country would be better off if he would just die. Or, failing that, just shut his ignorant, peckerwood mouth. We saw that in surprisingly stark terms the other day when Jimmy Kimmel, having been asked if he was concerned that his increasing politicization of his show would turn off Republican viewers replied "I probably wouldn't want to have a conversation with them anyway..Not good riddance, but riddance." |
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Post by Doug on Oct 17, 2017 11:59:39 GMT -5
The strange thing is most administrations have employed skilled and learned people to prepare and or edit everything a president says publicly. Right and that is the sign of a criminal. |
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Post by Chesapeake on Oct 17, 2017 12:06:47 GMT -5
New rule: whenever Donald Trump shoots from the hip, the bullet winds up in his foot.
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Post by patrick on Oct 17, 2017 12:25:17 GMT -5
Trump lies because its simply one facet of the morass of personality defects that define him.
In this case, he apparently hasn't reached out to the families of soldiers killed in Niger two weeks ago. Hasn't called, hasn't even tweeted condolences. Nothing. While he goes golfing and engaging in a pissing match with football players.
And he got caught. And like a little boy who hasn't done his homework, he instinctively lied to cover up, lied to distract, lied to weasel out of it. There's no grand plan. Just a scared little boy unable to do the basic elements of the job he holds or to take responsibility for himself or his actions or failures.
In a normal administration, there would be people who would keep track of these things and make sure they got done. But his isn't a normal administration. With rare exceptions, its staffed by incompetents and amateurs and headed by a guy with neither the intelligence or the experience to do this.
I'm kinda surprised that John Kelly didn't mention something, but the guy can't be everywhere and doing everything, down to picking the china for a state dinner. And I bet Kelly REALLY loves Trump for now dragging him and his personal tragedy into this ridiculous political embarrassment.
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Post by dradtke on Oct 17, 2017 12:27:51 GMT -5
Boil this down and you can start making some sense of Trump's statement. The old "take him seriously, not literally" thing applies here. He was, to use a contemporary term, "virtue signaling". He was signaling to the military families in America that he is "on their side", Signaling to the military families in America that he is "on their side" by ignoring the recent military deaths in the first place, which is what prompted the lie when he was asked about it. |
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Oct 17, 2017 12:41:52 GMT -5
Disagree with Jeff. Fine. But try to understand that the fact that you aren't even capable of empathizing with the point he's making is making his point. Part of Jeffs point (*assuming that Jeff is fauxhauma- I'm newish here)is: "Having done so, they further convince themselves that any contrary view is not only simply to be ignored, but downright contemptible." I'm sorry, but the point of view that it's OK for this President to lie like a six year old because they did not like the previous President, is contemptible. |
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Post by fauxmaha on Oct 17, 2017 12:50:01 GMT -5
Disagree with Jeff. Fine. But try to understand that the fact that you aren't even capable of empathizing with the point he's making is making his point. Part of Jeffs point (*assuming that Jeff is fauxhauma- I'm newish here)is: "Having done so, they further convince themselves that any contrary view is not only simply to be ignored, but downright contemptible." I'm sorry, but the point of view that it's OK for this President to lie like a six year old because they did not like the previous President, is contemptible. You are either willfully not understanding the point, or you really just don't. Either way, as John said, you are actually making it. I'll try putting it another way (really, just repeating myself). We do not directly perceive reality. Reality is an ephemeral abstraction beyond our comprehension. What we think of as reality is actually that abstraction filtered through our perceptual framework. You hear Trump and hear "Liar!". What you should be asking is if it is possible that others have a different perceptual framework that causes them to hear something else. |
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Post by Chesapeake on Oct 17, 2017 12:57:43 GMT -5
Jeff, I love you man, but you are sounding more and more like Kellyanne Conway on an especially creative day.
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Post by fauxmaha on Oct 17, 2017 13:00:03 GMT -5
Other than granting that I do have fabulous legs, I don't understand that at all.
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Post by Chesapeake on Oct 17, 2017 13:14:53 GMT -5
That's what I was playing off of. One of Kellyanne's talents is to interpret things that come out of the mouths of members of this administration in what I would call creative ways, like when she defended Sean Spicer's defense of Trump's falsehoods about the size of his inaugural crowd as "alternative facts."
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Post by Russell Letson on Oct 17, 2017 13:16:16 GMT -5
Oh, man, does that bit of pseudo-philosophical sophistry ever beg for an unpacking. But I only have time for a quick rummage through its top layers.
The central pea-shift is rebranding ignorance, prejudice, and rejection of analytical thinking as just a "different perceptual framework." When Trump says something that is demonstrably not true*, one has a limited set of explanations available: he was misinformed or mistaken (these are distinct conditions that can overlap) or he knowingly uttered an untruth. Any mentally and socially competent adult should be able to understand this and to work out the situations that would lead to one of the available conclusions.
What are we to make of a group of people that consistently ignores evidence that Trump says things that are not true? Or that he contradicts himself? Or that the implications of his various statements lead to irreconcilable positions? I know that I will be labeled snob and elitist, but that "different perceptual framework" is not doing any favors for those who harbor it. Or for the rest of us who are getting the government that they deserve.
* The demonstration can occur on the spot or come later from research or revelation of previously unknown facts or unavailable evidence. Of course, if you don't give a shit about evidence, then it doesn't matter what it demonstrates.
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Oct 17, 2017 13:22:44 GMT -5
We do not directly perceive reality. Reality is an ephemeral abstraction beyond our comprehension. What we think of as reality is actually that abstraction filtered through our perceptual framework. You hear Trump and hear "Liar!". What you should be asking is if it is possible that others have a different perceptual framework that causes them to hear something else. That is actually clarifying. I am fully aware that others have a perceptual framework that would cause them to hear something else. What they "hear" in this case does not square with observable reality (of which I am a believer). I am not being willfully obtuse. I believe that two plus two equal four. I believe that Trump saying Obama and Bush never paid their respects to fallen soldiers or Gold Star families is a lie. I am not quite sure what it benefits me to understand someone who would choose to believe otherwise regarding either statement. It is a fact that Trump lied yesterday about previous Presidents’ behaviors. If one chooses to believe otherwise, that person is not going to be any better off because I understand them. Their resentment towards the previous President will still remain at 11 on a scale of ten. Their scrutiny of the Toddler in Chief will remain non-existent. They have made their fears, and hating Obama and cheering chaos and division in the country their religion and the limit of what they feel they need to understand about America and the world. |
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Post by Doug on Oct 17, 2017 13:46:05 GMT -5
Anything is better than a professional politician.
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Post by Russell Letson on Oct 17, 2017 14:07:48 GMT -5
Anything? Michele Bachmann? Louis Gohmert? Sarah Palin?
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Post by Chesapeake on Oct 17, 2017 14:14:44 GMT -5
Hitler? Oops, jumped the gun.
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Post by Doug on Oct 17, 2017 14:19:06 GMT -5
Anything? Michele Bachmann? Louis Gohmert? Sarah Palin? I don't know who Gohmert is but the other too are professional politicians. Been elected once and run again makes you a vile professional politician. Edit I looked him up and he's a professional politician too. |
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Post by Doug on Oct 17, 2017 14:22:31 GMT -5
An elected official who runs for a second term should be looked on like a a child molester.
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 17, 2017 14:24:21 GMT -5
Hitler? Oops, jumped the gun. Speaking of lies, I've been wondering where all the self important, psuedo-intellectual predictions of Trump as the second coming of Hitler that were so popular about this time last year have gone. I keep waiting for the jackboots to arrive. Or maybe where all the Mexicans, gays, Muslims, and women that were going to be rounded up in Trumps fascist concentration/deportation camps are being hidden. Liars indeed. |
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Post by theevan on Oct 17, 2017 14:38:03 GMT -5
What makes Trump a better president is that he's not a politician. I don't like a lot of what he's doing but I'm enjoying him destroying the good ole boy network of DC. Always vote against the incumbent because you know he's a crook. Folks didn't want a politician. So they got an impudent child who, at times, does astute things. I duck every time he opens his mouth. It's like living in the twilight zone. |
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