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Post by Shannon on Oct 18, 2017 17:11:26 GMT -5
I don't know, maybe the following is a new thought for this thread ...
Trump said something that is factually incorrect regarding the actions of past presidents.
One possibility is that he lied. Another possibility is that he didn't intend to mislead, but he just didn't know what he was talking about (surely we've all been there at some point).
Here's the thing: whichever of the above is true, he shouldn't have said anything of the sort at all. It showed a complete lack of prudence, and if a POTUS should have any important characteristic at all, it should be prudence. No matter his motive for his statements, it was both wrong and stupid for him to make them.
To quote a famous, if fictional, Alabama resident, "...and that's all I've got to say about that."
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Post by Chesapeake on Oct 18, 2017 17:56:40 GMT -5
The question of whether Trump said those words ("he knew what he was getting into"), or something similar, is still contested. Trump says he didn't. But if he did, I would think that would about tear it among his remaining supporters in the military. It's annoying enough to hear it from ordinary civilians. But (speaking as one proud vet here) to hear it from the commander-in-chief? What planet does he live on? I'm tired of this whole line of thinking. Maybe he said it. Maybe it is out of context. It's just not freaking news. Except he has gone as far as to accuse Obama of not treating the families of fallen servicemen with proper respect. So, that opens the door for this otherwise miniscule hearsay discussion. Just more of the daily bullshit. I'm so tired of this. So am I. I wish that would make the problem go away.
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Post by millring on Oct 19, 2017 6:12:26 GMT -5
The question of whether Trump said those words ("he knew what he was getting into"), or something similar, is still contested. Trump says he didn't. But if he did, I would think that would about tear it among his remaining supporters in the military. It's annoying enough to hear it from ordinary civilians. But (speaking as one proud vet here) to hear it from the commander-in-chief? What planet does he live on? Honestly, do you think a person in the military doesn't know what he was getting into? Isn't it the apparent insensitivity that appears bothersome? And, if so, why? Wouldn't part of stopping the use of the military as chips with which to score political points be understanding that very acknowledgment? Isn't it the better part of reason to acknowledge that, as heartless as Trump's comment (if he made it) seems, it's a truth that we ought to face? Isn't he expressing the very nature of a volunteer force?
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Post by jdd2 on Oct 19, 2017 6:18:31 GMT -5
The question of whether Trump said those words ("he knew what he was getting into"), or something similar, is still contested. Trump says he didn't. But if he did, I would think that would about tear it among his remaining supporters in the military. It's annoying enough to hear it from ordinary civilians. But (speaking as one proud vet here) to hear it from the commander-in-chief? What planet does he live on? Honestly, do you think a person in the military doesn't know what he was getting into? ... Sure, but for what and for who?
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Post by brucemacneill on Oct 19, 2017 6:23:44 GMT -5
Honestly, do you think a person in the military doesn't know what he was getting into? ... Sure, but for what and for who? If it's page 7 must be Hitler.
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 19, 2017 7:10:11 GMT -5
Sure, but for what and for who? If it's page 7 must be Hitler. Chesapeake stole your thunder on page 2.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2017 7:12:31 GMT -5
The question of whether Trump said those words ("he knew what he was getting into"), or something similar, is still contested. Trump says he didn't. But if he did, I would think that would about tear it among his remaining supporters in the military. It's annoying enough to hear it from ordinary civilians. But (speaking as one proud vet here) to hear it from the commander-in-chief? What planet does he live on? Honestly, do you think a person in the military doesn't know what he was getting into? Isn't it the apparent insensitivity that appears bothersome? And, if so, why? Wouldn't part of stopping the use of the military as chips with which to score political points be understanding that very acknowledgment? Isn't it the better part of reason to acknowledge that, as heartless as Trump's comment (if he made it) seems, it's a truth that we ought to face? Isn't he expressing the very nature of a volunteer force? Not really, John. All of us put our hands into the air to, "Support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic." What we didn't do was to put our hands into the air to, "Support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and be totally cool with the absolutely stupid, worthless, and fruitless way you "basket of deplorables" in DC have employed us for many of the years following the end of the Cold War. Nor are we cool with the, "they knew what they were getting into" mantra. Yeah, we volunteered because somebody has to defend the Constitution in spite of you people, regardless whether we agree with the manner in which you employ us. Most of us who stay for a career stay for each other after a while anyway, and not for you politicians, or for many of your fellow Americans for that matter. We also stay because there remains a distinct possibility that we may be needed for something beyond military adventurism one day, so we'll tolerate your jack-assery for now. Doesn't mean we condone it or like it." Hope that clears it up some.
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Post by brucemacneill on Oct 19, 2017 7:13:18 GMT -5
If it's page 7 must be Hitler. Chesapeake stole your thunder on page 2. Yeah but he jumped the gun. Typical of a progressive.
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Post by millring on Oct 19, 2017 7:30:17 GMT -5
...and be totally cool with the absolutely stupid, worthless, and fruitless way you "basket of deplorables" in DC have employed us for many of the years following the end of the Cold War. All the current volunteers knew that and volunteered anyway. Did they assume something would change? If so, what?
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Post by millring on Oct 19, 2017 7:42:57 GMT -5
btw, I'm not trying to be disrespectful (nor do I care enough for Trump to be trying to defend him). I'm just really bothered by our national worship of the military rather than a view of it as a necessary but distasteful side of life. I'm thankful for people who are willing to do the world's dirty work, but it doesn't mean I can't question it.
So, maybe "He knew what he was getting into" isn't what you say to a grieving family, but it is what you say in a speech to America.
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Post by Chesapeake on Oct 19, 2017 8:40:24 GMT -5
There are a lot of things you could say to a grieving family that would be true but inappropriate, like telling people who just lost an 80-year-old grandma, "well, she was old anyway," or someone who just lost a child, "we all have to go sometime." Or saying to the family of a fallen soldier that "he knew what he was getting into when he signed up." It's especially galling, even frightening, to know that is in the back of the mind of a CIC when he/she contemplates ordering soldiers into life-threatening situations. Maybe that's what all CICs have been thinking in every scrap our nation has gotten into since the advent of the all-volunteer force - and that was one of the early fears about the new order - but had more sense than to say out loud. What kind of a heartless bastard would speak in such a way to weeping parents and widows? It's just another example of how this individual lacks some vital element of basic humanity, including concern for people other than himself and his own family who are in distress.
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Post by Chesapeake on Oct 19, 2017 8:50:35 GMT -5
"You, and all the rest of us, and your own family for generations to come, can be proud that your son willingly gave up his life in the service of our country."
In the infinite number of things he might have said, how's that?
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Post by Chesapeake on Oct 19, 2017 8:54:25 GMT -5
Having said all that, I still do wonder if what the congresswoman reported him as saying is what he really said, or more her own interpretation of his words, given the fact that she is a highly partisan member of the Democratic party. I'm still waiting, with an open mind (believe it or not), to hear the evidence Trump says he has that disproves her report. But I believe the reason her report has caused such an outcry is because it fits right in with his patterns of behavior.
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Post by fauxmaha on Oct 19, 2017 9:05:59 GMT -5
Meanwhile, Ted Cruz and Bernie Sanders held an intelligent, respectful, informative and thoughtful debate on tax policy on CNN.
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Post by millring on Oct 19, 2017 9:16:36 GMT -5
There are a lot of things you could say to a grieving family that would be true but inappropriate, like telling people who just lost an 80-year-old grandma, "well, she was old anyway," or someone who just lost a child, "we all have to go sometime." Or saying to the family of a fallen soldier that "he knew what he was getting into when he signed up." It's especially galling, even frightening, to know that is in the back of the mind of a CIC when he/she contemplates ordering soldiers into life-threatening situations. Maybe that's what all CICs have been thinking in every scrap our nation has gotten into since the advent of the all-volunteer force - and that was one of the early fears about the new order - but had more sense than to say out loud. What kind of a heartless bastard would speak in such a way to weeping parents and widows? It's just another example of how this individual lacks some vital element of basic humanity, including concern for people other than himself and his own family who are in distress. Exactly. But the argument isn't that what Trump said was inaccurate. It was insensitively said to the wrong person at the wrong time. And the problem with arguing that it isn't true is to ignore the very reality that has allowed our military to be used in the manner in which it has been used -- and by "used" I mean deployed AND as a political football. If we want a volunteer military, a volunteer should know what he's volunteering for and not what he wishes he was volunteering for.
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Post by Chesapeake on Oct 19, 2017 9:26:36 GMT -5
Meanwhile, Ted Cruz and Bernie Sanders held an intelligent, respectful, informative and thoughtful debate on tax policy on CNN. Intelligent? Respectful? Informative? Thoughtful? What novel ideas!
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Oct 19, 2017 9:30:58 GMT -5
And the problem with arguing that it isn't true is to ignore the very reality that has allowed our military to be used in the manner in which it has been used -- and by "used" I mean deployed AND as a political football. If we want a volunteer military, a volunteer should know what he's volunteering for and not what he wishes he was volunteering for. John, the new recruits for all volunteer force are comprised of primarily 18 yr olds. Their brain won't be fully functioning for a few more years. Your expectations are not realistic. Mike
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Post by millring on Oct 19, 2017 9:33:54 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2017 9:36:04 GMT -5
And the problem with arguing that it isn't true is to ignore the very reality that has allowed our military to be used in the manner in which it has been used -- and by "used" I mean deployed AND as a political football. If we want a volunteer military, a volunteer should know what he's volunteering for and not what he wishes he was volunteering for. John, the new recruits for all volunteer force are comprised of primarily 18 yr olds. Their brain won't be fully functioning for a few more years. Your expectations are not realistic. Mike I'd say that's close to the mark. Most 18 year olds, be they recruits or new ROTC or service academy entrants, still have faith that The Powers That Be know what they are doing. Their volunteerism should not be mistaken for a sophisticated, and that's a key word here, understanding of the whys behind how a particular military operation started and is being conducted.
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Post by millring on Oct 19, 2017 9:39:32 GMT -5
Then perhaps we shouldn't be allowing them to volunteer. Maybe we shouldn't have a system that allows people to volunteer to die if they don't know that's what they're volunteering for. Maybe we ought to have a volunteer army of 60 year olds whose good life is over and will soon be a net drag on the economy anyway.
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