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Post by brucemacneill on Feb 16, 2018 11:33:07 GMT -5
Yes, there has to be an investigation into how this mentally ill guy got his hands on an AR-15. Somebody needs to be held accountable for that. His parents? Gun store owner? Lax coordination between government agencies charged with tracking this kind of information. There needs to be serious penalties for those that allow a person with a track record like this to get his hands on such lethal tools. HIPAA keeps patient records from being shared. Doctor/patient confidentiality stops doctors from telling other authorities about any suspicions they might have unless they can say there is a definite reason to think there is immediate danger. In mental health, IMHO, that's a problem. The ACLU thinks otherwise.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 16, 2018 11:39:11 GMT -5
Maybe it's something about having an engineering background, but you all do realize that there are problems in this world that are not solvable, don't you?
Consider some facts:
1. Congress is neither structured to, nor capable of, solving the issue. It is designed as a citizen's tribunal (not particularly intellectual giants) whose only purpose is political. It has been purposefully designed to not be real damn effective at anything. Effective government is the hallmark of tyranny.
2. The absurd ridicule of bump stocks is characteristic of opinion-based arguments of people who couldn't purchase a clue. Something that you could actually use responsibly (stated with the requisite contempt)? Well, let's see. How many bump stocks exist? How many bump stocks were used in Vegas? Subtract the second number from the first and that's how many are being used responsibly- by definition.
And finally, a bit of reality- there are something like 2000 gun deaths in the US annually. That includes the weekly Chicago fest of macabre gang violence, etc.
2000. Let that sink if for just a bit.
2000.
of 2.75 MILLION annual deaths in the US.
That's roughly 0.07%. Finer than a frog hair as we say.
People getting killed is a tragedy and a crime. I grieve for the victims like everyone else.
But somewhere along the way we've come to the conclusion that people dying is solvable if we just put our minds to it.
No it's not. And there's nobody here that can prove it is.
So until someone comes up with a real reason to do anything more, I'm happy with the America and the heavily armed community I live in.
And I REALLY don't give a shit what other countries do. They're welcome to it.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 16, 2018 11:40:59 GMT -5
Yes, there has to be an investigation into how this mentally ill guy got his hands on an AR-15. Somebody needs to be held accountable for that. His parents? Gun store owner? Lax coordination between government agencies charged with tracking this kind of information. There needs to be serious penalties for those that allow a person with a track record like this to get his hands on such lethal tools. Trump and the republicans revearsed Obama era legislation that kept guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. Mike What legislation? What was the name of the bill that passed?
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Feb 16, 2018 11:51:12 GMT -5
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 16, 2018 11:53:25 GMT -5
That's kind of a big technical difference.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Feb 16, 2018 12:56:00 GMT -5
Not really.
Mike
PS. Poached this from SuperTramps post on FB.
"Quick history lesson. We are coming up on the one year anniversary of H.J. Res 40. This was a bill agreed to by every Republican Senator and 229 of the 231 Repubican Representatives, and signed by Trump. The bill removed restrictions on people deemed mentally ill from buying guns. This morning, Republican Senator Chuck Grassley said that Congress hasn't done a good job in deciphering who should be able to get guns. "We have not done a very good job of making sure that people that have mental reasons for not being able to handle a gun getting their name into the FBI files and we need to concentrate on that." Gee, Chuck, then maybe you shouldn't have voted for a bill that made it easier for mentally ill people to buy guns? You think?"
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 16, 2018 13:12:22 GMT -5
Not really. Mike PS. Poached this from SuperTramps post on FB. "Quick history lesson. We are coming up on the one year anniversary of H.J. Res 40. This was a bill agreed to by every Republican Senator and 229 of the 231 Repubican Representatives, and signed by Trump. The bill removed restrictions on people deemed mentally ill from buying guns. This morning, Republican Senator Chuck Grassley said that Congress hasn't done a good job in deciphering who should be able to get guns. "We have not done a very good job of making sure that people that have mental reasons for not being able to handle a gun getting their name into the FBI files and we need to concentrate on that." Gee, Chuck, then maybe you shouldn't have voted for a bill that made it easier for mentally ill people to buy guns? You think?" Which is a piss poor measure of what was actually in the entirety of the resolution rendering the active scope creep for political purposes nonsensical. The simple fact is that Obama never passed actual legislation for his desires. Actual legislation is binding. Executive action is just as durable as the desires of the Executive who declared it. A fact Obama never quite seemed to understand.
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Post by millring on Feb 16, 2018 13:23:57 GMT -5
A fact Obama never quite seemed to understand. I think he full well understood it. It's his defenders who now think that Trump is overstepping his authority in reversing Obama's executive orders who don't understand it.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Feb 16, 2018 13:37:21 GMT -5
A fact Obama never quite seemed to understand. I think he full well understood it. It's his defenders who now think that Trump is overstepping his authority in reversing Obama's executive orders who don't understand it. You guys really don't get it. It's not that we think trump is overstepping his authority. It's not that we confuse executive orders with legislation. It's that allowing mentally ill people to access guns is fucking insane! Mike
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 16, 2018 13:41:14 GMT -5
I think he full well understood it. It's his defenders who now think that Trump is overstepping his authority in reversing Obama's executive orders who don't understand it. You guys really don't get it. It's not that we think trump is overstepping his authority. It's not that we confuse executive orders with legislation. It's that allowing mentally ill people to access guns is fucking insane! Mike Then actually do the work to change it or quit yer bitchin'.
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Post by Marshall on Feb 16, 2018 14:26:47 GMT -5
"FOUL" on Peter's part.
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Post by fauxmaha on Feb 16, 2018 14:29:44 GMT -5
I read something recently that was rather striking. Carl Jung was talking about medieval alchemists, and they had something Jung described as an axiom that went "in sterquiliniis invenitur". Literally translated, that means "it will be found in filth", but a better translation is something like "That which you want the most will be found where you least want to look".
That struck me as quite a coincidence when I saw all the reactions to the Florida shooting.
Ideology gives us the comfort of avoiding "where you least want to look". Everything is simple. Better still, ideology gives us the comfort of knowing that "we" are right/good and "they" are wrong/evil. What could be more satisfying?
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Post by Marshall on Feb 16, 2018 14:31:51 GMT -5
I least want to look in your septic tank.
That's where the solution lies?
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Post by millring on Feb 16, 2018 14:34:13 GMT -5
I read something recently that was rather striking. Carl Jung was talking about medieval alchemists, and they had something Jung described as an axiom that went " in sterquiliniis invenitur". Literally translated, that means "it will be found in filth", but a better translation is something like "That which you want the most will be found where you least want to look". That struck me as quite a coincidence when I saw all the reactions to the Florida shooting. Ideology gives us the comfort of avoiding "where you least want to look". Everything is simple. Better still, ideology gives us the comfort of knowing that "we" are right/good and "they" are wrong/evil. What could be more satisfying? The Repulsive Cultural Other.
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Post by millring on Feb 16, 2018 14:36:12 GMT -5
Where? Did he delete a post or something?
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Post by Marshall on Feb 16, 2018 14:41:34 GMT -5
Then actually do the work to change it or quit yer bitchin'. Personal foul. 15 yards and loss of post.
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,904
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Post by Dub on Feb 16, 2018 14:50:57 GMT -5
You guys really don't get it. It's not that we think trump is overstepping his authority. It's not that we confuse executive orders with legislation. It's that allowing mentally ill people to access guns is fucking insane! Mike Then actually do the work to change it or quit yer bitchin'. Peter has offered a bit of wisdom here that I suspect relatively few Americans understand. If we want something done, it is we who must do it. One of the lessons I learned during the time I spent as a public official is that elected officials—representatives, congressmen, senators, etc.—almost never draft proposed laws or think about possible laws to solve problems. What they do is wait for fully completed proposed legislation to be brought to them by interested parties. But bringing completed bills isn’t enough. The bills or the ideas they encapsulate must also have been well marketed so that widespread interest already exists and the representative to whom it’s being offered must see it as a boon to his or her career. So if we start a cohesive movement, draft a bill with some chance of passage, and sell it effectively to a representative capable of steering it through the legislative process (and probably add in some campaign contributions), we can accomplish something akin to what we hoped to get. Otherwise we are simply the audience.
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Post by fauxmaha on Feb 16, 2018 14:53:56 GMT -5
I read something recently that was rather striking. Carl Jung was talking about medieval alchemists, and they had something Jung described as an axiom that went " in sterquiliniis invenitur". Literally translated, that means "it will be found in filth", but a better translation is something like "That which you want the most will be found where you least want to look". That struck me as quite a coincidence when I saw all the reactions to the Florida shooting. Ideology gives us the comfort of avoiding "where you least want to look". Everything is simple. Better still, ideology gives us the comfort of knowing that "we" are right/good and "they" are wrong/evil. What could be more satisfying? The Repulsive Cultural Other. Exactly. Human behavior is infinitely complex. It is facile to think "none of this would be happening if those other people would just get their act together". Saves the psyche from any disruptive or painful reflection on your own "septic tank". In the present case, accepting that this particular sort of event is increasing in frequency in a statistically meaningful way (although I'm not entirely sure that's true), I think it makes sense to ask what has changed vis-a-vis (for example) 1930. My sense is we really don't want to do that, because we fear what we might find.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 16, 2018 14:55:16 GMT -5
Then actually do the work to change it or quit yer bitchin'. Personal foul. 15 yards and loss of post. Hell, I'm agreeing with him. Legislation does that. It's binding and whether I agree or not on the details, if you want to do the hard work to get legislation, you won't hear a single gripe from me. If you want to sit in front of your computer and gripe about how the "others" don't get what is entirely obvious to you, it ain't worth my time.
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Post by Shannon on Feb 16, 2018 14:56:16 GMT -5
The Repulsive Cultural Other. Exactly. Human behavior is infinitely complex. It is facile to think "none of this would be happening if those other people would just get their act together". Saves the psyche from any disruptive or painful reflection on your own "septic tank". In the present case, accepting that this particular sort of event is increasing in frequency in a statistically meaningful way (although I'm not entirely sure that's true), I think it makes sense to ask what has changed vis-a-vis (for example) 1930. My sense is we really don't want to do that, because we fear what we might find. That's more-or-less one of the points I was trying to make with my last post. I didn't make it as well, and used too many words.
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