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Post by aquaduct on Jan 30, 2020 13:06:01 GMT -5
I mean the last five. Or six. Trump didn't start it. I don't know when it started or at which point it left orbit, but it has. And but for Trump and the partisan battlefield, conservatives would be leading the charge to clip the presidential wings. And I believe if the Bolton block goes to SCOTUS, there will be a shortening of presidential feathers. Presidents will grab all the power they can, and each one grabs a little more than the one before him, and it is their right to do so... until it isn't. I've discussed this a number of times here and I'll try not to bore you with it again, but..... The Administrative State really became a serious thing in the mid-60s. The deal with the devil that Congress made at that time was to decide that it was much more politically convenient to simply stop legislating and become administrators of the Administrative State. You want proof, simply look at the Democratic Presidential field and check how many of those folks have become multi-millionaires over decades of service on basically less than $200K annual salary. How is this done? Simple really. New laws aren't passed. Old laws aren't amended. It's usually up to either the Supreme Court or Executive Order to expand and modify the scope of existing law. The Administrative State makes the rules and pushes ever to expand (it's thier livelihood). You want examples? Check out net neutrality (Executive order) or CO2 as a pollutant (Supreme Court decision). In both cases the actual relevant laws were never changed. In the first, the definition of "utility" (I think, been away from details for a while) was changed to include internet and in the second "pollutants" were changed to include a non-pollutant. Note too that it has really come to a head under the Obama administration (his bragging that he's got a pen). Now it's gotten to the point where even budgets can't be passed because, God knows, you can't cut spending. That would require Congress make a decision to cut the Administrative State which might deprive some of them of jobs, God forbid. That would ultimately derail the cushy gig. Trump came in knowing where the weaknesses were. He immediately dumped any new regulation that Obama had carelessly left open by scrapping the authorities Obama had relied on. He's goaded the CO2 regulation aficionados into a new Supreme Court fight simply by not setting new rules as stringently as they would have demanded. And now that he's been packing the courts with conservative judges, it's getting more and more likely that the entire legal framework of the Administrative State could be gutted. And in an as yet largely critically unexamined program, he's gunning to knee cap executive power and return to the balance of powers envisioned by the Constitution. And Congress can't defend itself. If Congress really wants to do anything anymore, they may just have to take their chances legislating like in the good old days. It took someone from outside the beltway and the inherent corruption of the system to execute that plan. This is what the rubes and deplorables out here in fly-over land see (although most only know it subconsciously). And waxing this impeachment nonsense will just continue to contribute to his momentum. That's why the Administrative State and their supporters in the media (the Nixon impeachment created the media as omniscient gods narrative and they continue to pay their benefactors back with fealty to the cause) are flat out panicked and embarrassing themselves. God knows we can't have government of the people and by the people. We'd obviously fuck it up.
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Post by coachdoc on Jan 30, 2020 13:14:00 GMT -5
A refreshingly lucid post free of name calling. I've never heard those points made so clearly in the past. Positing the 'admistrative state' and the Supreme Court as the real powers of change jives with my poorly attentive perception of things as they are.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 30, 2020 13:39:00 GMT -5
A refreshingly lucid post free of name calling. I've never heard those points made so clearly in the past. Positing the 'admistrative state' and the Supreme Court as the real powers of change jives with my poorly attentive perception of things as they are. I try to be unfailingly polite (admittedly I'm not always successful) to people like you who make an effort to return the favor.
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Post by Marshall on Jan 30, 2020 15:09:14 GMT -5
Buzz off ya Bastard ! I was driving around today for some work stuff. Listened to some of the proceedings. I have to say it's great theater. Both sides doing an excellent job of oratory. Some really passionate, cogent elocution. I think we get our money's worth out of our elected officials (that is if passionate bullshit is what we're paying for). I think the whole affair has raised the public's awareness and appreciation ( I hope) for the Constitution and our form of government.
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Post by brucemacneill on Jan 30, 2020 15:20:10 GMT -5
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 30, 2020 15:28:11 GMT -5
Speaking of that, Trump's got another rally in Iowa tonight!
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Post by brucemacneill on Jan 30, 2020 15:43:30 GMT -5
Speaking of that, Trump's got another rally in Iowa tonight! He's stopping in Michigan too, I believe but to visit a factory not for a rally.
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Jan 30, 2020 16:26:21 GMT -5
Speaking of that, Trump's got another rally in Iowa tonight! Another wank-fest in front of a half-empty hall.
What a pathetic, needy p.o.s. he is.
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Post by millring on Jan 30, 2020 16:38:28 GMT -5
Buzz off ya Bastard ! I was driving around today for some work stuff. Listened to some of the proceedings. I have to say it's great theater. Both sides doing an excellent job of oratory. Some really passionate, cogent elocution. I think we get our money's worth out of our elected officials (that is if passionate bullshit is what we're paying for). I think the whole affair has raised the public's awareness and appreciation ( I hope) for the Constitution and our form of government. I'll admit to abject disappointment. I guess that goes with the territory. Whaddid I expect? It's government. It's politics -- the last place on earth where anyone should look for honesty. Washington and its press grabbed Prometheus' torch from him and beat him to death. But for just one unthinking minute when I heard that the senators would be submitting questions, my mind instantly inferred that Republicans would be asking for clarification from the House Democrats and the Democrats would be asking for clarification from the White House Council. Instead, it was just yet another set-up. The Democrats "asked questions" that were simply opportunities for the House to repeat for the hundredth time everything we got the first time. And Republicans "asked questions" that were simply opportunities for the White House Council to repeat the same things they had just spent 20 hours explaining, and that we got the first time. Damn them to hell. (okay, I'll still pray for them. Under duress. )
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Post by brucemacneill on Jan 30, 2020 16:41:28 GMT -5
It'll never happen but Democrats should learn that the reason people like Trump now, even though they, like me, may not have supported him in 2016 is that he doesn't lie to them and they know that Democrats usually do. Trump says what he thinks. He can be persuaded to change his mind for which he's accused of flip-flopping but he says what he thinks. He says what he's going to do and then goes out and does it. He knows the left hates him but he's a honey badger not a politician, he doesn't give a shit. Common people are accustomed to dealing with honest people, not politicians. Rich as he may be, Trump talks and treats people as regular people. They like that. He didn't need the job, he took it because he felt the country needed someone who doesn't give a shit about politics, diplomacy and compromise. He was right. He made it good to be an American again. All IMHO of course.
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Post by Russell Letson on Jan 30, 2020 17:45:53 GMT -5
. . . the reason people like Trump now . . . is that he doesn't lie to them and they know that Democrats usually do. Trump says what he thinks. . . . . Common people are accustomed to dealing with honest people, not politicians. Oy me. Trump's lies are extensive and extensively documented. To choose an arbitrary starting point, his insistence that he saw on TV Muslims in New Jersey cheering the fall of the towers on 9/11. Or that Ted Cruz's father hung out with Lee Harvey Oswald "shortly before" the assasination. And "common people" have to deal with used-car salesmen, telemarketers, real-estate developers, and purveyors of tooth-whitening and dick-stiffening nostrums on a daily basis. Trump fits right in there, so maybe it's the familiarity that endears him to these "common people." Or maybe its the way he plays to their fears, resentments, and hostilities, or his gift for promoting the most compelling conspiracy theories.
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Post by brucemacneill on Jan 30, 2020 18:32:12 GMT -5
Yup, and that will get him reelected.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 30, 2020 21:14:01 GMT -5
. . . the reason people like Trump now . . . is that he doesn't lie to them and they know that Democrats usually do. Trump says what he thinks. . . . . Common people are accustomed to dealing with honest people, not politicians. Oy me. Trump's lies are extensive and extensively documented. To choose an arbitrary starting point, his insistence that he saw on TV Muslims in New Jersey cheering the fall of the towers on 9/11. Or that Ted Cruz's father hung out with Lee Harvey Oswald "shortly before" the assasination. And "common people" have to deal with used-car salesmen, telemarketers, real-estate developers, and purveyors of tooth-whitening and dick-stiffening nostrums on a daily basis. Trump fits right in there, so maybe it's the familiarity that endears him to these "common people." Or maybe its the way he plays to their fears, resentments, and hostilities, or his gift for promoting the most compelling conspiracy theories. Or maybe it's the way he's delivering on his promises to those folks you so blithly ridicule. There's always that possibility.
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Post by sidheguitarmichael on Jan 31, 2020 0:37:51 GMT -5
Is now a good time to mention that I know a guy who was Trump and wife #1’s (Ivanka) personal chef for an 18-month contract at the tail end of the 80s?
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Post by david on Jan 31, 2020 1:32:59 GMT -5
I mean the last five. Or six. Trump didn't start it. I don't know when it started or at which point it left orbit, but it has. And but for Trump and the partisan battlefield, conservatives would be leading the charge to clip the presidential wings. And I believe if the Bolton block goes to SCOTUS, there will be a shortening of presidential feathers. Presidents will grab all the power they can, and each one grabs a little more than the one before him, and it is their right to do so... until it isn't. I've discussed this a number of times here and I'll try not to bore you with it again, but..... The Administrative State really became a serious thing in the mid-60s. The deal with the devil that Congress made at that time was to decide that it was much more politically convenient to simply stop legislating and become administrators of the Administrative State. You want proof, simply look at the Democratic Presidential field and check how many of those folks have become multi-millionaires over decades of service on basically less than $200K annual salary. How is this done? Simple really. New laws aren't passed. Old laws aren't amended. It's usually up to either the Supreme Court or Executive Order to expand and modify the scope of existing law. The Administrative State makes the rules and pushes ever to expand (it's thier livelihood). You want examples? Check out net neutrality (Executive order) or CO2 as a pollutant (Supreme Court decision). In both cases the actual relevant laws were never changed. In the first, the definition of "utility" (I think, been away from details for a while) was changed to include internet and in the second "pollutants" were changed to include a non-pollutant. Note too that it has really come to a head under the Obama administration (his bragging that he's got a pen). Now it's gotten to the point where even budgets can't be passed because, God knows, you can't cut spending. That would require Congress make a decision to cut the Administrative State which might deprive some of them of jobs, God forbid. That would ultimately derail the cushy gig. Trump came in knowing where the weaknesses were. He immediately dumped any new regulation that Obama had carelessly left open by scrapping the authorities Obama had relied on. He's goaded the CO2 regulation aficionados into a new Supreme Court fight simply by not setting new rules as stringently as they would have demanded. And now that he's been packing the courts with conservative judges, it's getting more and more likely that the entire legal framework of the Administrative State could be gutted. And in an as yet largely critically unexamined program, he's gunning to knee cap executive power and return to the balance of powers envisioned by the Constitution. And Congress can't defend itself. If Congress really wants to do anything anymore, they may just have to take their chances legislating like in the good old days. It took someone from outside the beltway and the inherent corruption of the system to execute that plan. This is what the rubes and deplorables out here in fly-over land see (although most only know it subconsciously). And waxing this impeachment nonsense will just continue to contribute to his momentum. That's why the Administrative State and their supporters in the media (the Nixon impeachment created the media as omniscient gods narrative and they continue to pay their benefactors back with fealty to the cause) are flat out panicked and embarrassing themselves. God knows we can't have government of the people and by the people. We'd obviously fuck it up. Peter, I agree with your premise that administrations are grabbing more power with every administration. I would NOT blame it on a particular party. I also think that the court is still about where it was, in terms of the triumvirate power structure, (executive-legislative-judicial), from many decades past. I don't know how the exectuive branch would ever get reeled back. It would likely require parties within the legislative branch to work together. Even with a run-away president (you think Obama, I will think Trump) the legislative branch just becomes more entrenched with their boy in office.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 31, 2020 11:29:19 GMT -5
I've discussed this a number of times here and I'll try not to bore you with it again, but..... The Administrative State really became a serious thing in the mid-60s. The deal with the devil that Congress made at that time was to decide that it was much more politically convenient to simply stop legislating and become administrators of the Administrative State. You want proof, simply look at the Democratic Presidential field and check how many of those folks have become multi-millionaires over decades of service on basically less than $200K annual salary. How is this done? Simple really. New laws aren't passed. Old laws aren't amended. It's usually up to either the Supreme Court or Executive Order to expand and modify the scope of existing law. The Administrative State makes the rules and pushes ever to expand (it's thier livelihood). You want examples? Check out net neutrality (Executive order) or CO2 as a pollutant (Supreme Court decision). In both cases the actual relevant laws were never changed. In the first, the definition of "utility" (I think, been away from details for a while) was changed to include internet and in the second "pollutants" were changed to include a non-pollutant. Note too that it has really come to a head under the Obama administration (his bragging that he's got a pen). Now it's gotten to the point where even budgets can't be passed because, God knows, you can't cut spending. That would require Congress make a decision to cut the Administrative State which might deprive some of them of jobs, God forbid. That would ultimately derail the cushy gig. Trump came in knowing where the weaknesses were. He immediately dumped any new regulation that Obama had carelessly left open by scrapping the authorities Obama had relied on. He's goaded the CO2 regulation aficionados into a new Supreme Court fight simply by not setting new rules as stringently as they would have demanded. And now that he's been packing the courts with conservative judges, it's getting more and more likely that the entire legal framework of the Administrative State could be gutted. And in an as yet largely critically unexamined program, he's gunning to knee cap executive power and return to the balance of powers envisioned by the Constitution. And Congress can't defend itself. If Congress really wants to do anything anymore, they may just have to take their chances legislating like in the good old days. It took someone from outside the beltway and the inherent corruption of the system to execute that plan. This is what the rubes and deplorables out here in fly-over land see (although most only know it subconsciously). And waxing this impeachment nonsense will just continue to contribute to his momentum. That's why the Administrative State and their supporters in the media (the Nixon impeachment created the media as omniscient gods narrative and they continue to pay their benefactors back with fealty to the cause) are flat out panicked and embarrassing themselves. God knows we can't have government of the people and by the people. We'd obviously fuck it up. Peter, I agree with your premise that administrations are grabbing more power with every administration. I would NOT blame it on a particular party. I also think that the court is still about where it was, in terms of the triumvirate power structure, (executive-legislative-judicial), from many decades past. I don't know how the exectuive branch would ever get reeled back. It would likely require parties within the legislative branch to work together. Even with a run-away president (you think Obama, I will think Trump) the legislative branch just becomes more entrenched with their boy in office. David, I'd phrase the premise as administrations have been ceded power as the legislative has surrendered it. The Legislative has done so by opting for a better career position (it's a bitch to have to be judged by legislation you've actually gotten up in public and argued and voted for. Easier to just let the Administrative State propose, post notice, and unilaterally enact completely out of sight of real public scrutiny.) It's not a particular party, but rather a mindset that assumes the government is better at directing citizen lives than the citizens themselves. And as that mindset has been pushed out into the entirety of the government, it circumvents the purpose of the triumvirate power structure that's supposed to ensure checks and balances. It's not that the Supreme court is different structurally, it's that it's made up of folks with more expansive legal viewpoints that are more readily open to expanding government power. The Legislative branch is working together, just not in the way the framers intended. And the Executive is being reeled back as Trump pushes back by blowing up the drift in the other two branches.
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Post by Marshall on Jan 31, 2020 12:35:32 GMT -5
Buzz off ya Bastard ! I was driving around today for some work stuff. Listened to some of the proceedings. I have to say it's great theater. Both sides doing an excellent job of oratory. Some really passionate, cogent elocution. I think we get our money's worth out of our elected officials (that is if passionate bullshit is what we're paying for). I think the whole affair has raised the public's awareness and appreciation ( I hope) for the Constitution and our form of government. I'll admit to abject disappointment. I guess that goes with the territory. Whaddid I expect? It's government. It's politics -- the last place on earth where anyone should look for honesty. Washington and its press grabbed Prometheus' torch from him and beat him to death. But for just one unthinking minute when I heard that the senators would be submitting questions, my mind instantly inferred that Republicans would be asking for clarification from the House Democrats and the Democrats would be asking for clarification from the White House Council. Instead, it was just yet another set-up. The Democrats "asked questions" that were simply opportunities for the House to repeat for the hundredth time everything we got the first time. And Republicans "asked questions" that were simply opportunities for the White House Council to repeat the same things they had just spent 20 hours explaining, and that we got the first time. Damn them to hell. (okay, I'll still pray for them. Under duress. ) It's sort of the western front during WWI. "Send the boys over the wall and attack the other line." Maybe the umpteenth time will be different than all the others. We are truly instituting the Imperial Presidency. Doesn't matter who's in office or what they do. Congress will ceremoniously abdicate their responsibility.
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Post by sidheguitarmichael on Jan 31, 2020 12:38:38 GMT -5
You folks want a dark, yet realistic prediction? I predict that going forward, the house impeaching any president from the opposition party will become the new normal. Toothpaste doesn’t get stuffed back into the tube, ever.
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Post by brucemacneill on Jan 31, 2020 12:46:08 GMT -5
You folks want a dark, yet realistic prediction? I predict that going forward, the house impeaching any president from the opposition party will become the new normal. Toothpaste doesn’t get stuffed back into the tube, ever. I think the next impeachment will start Monday, assuming the acquittal happens today or tomorrow.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 31, 2020 13:03:03 GMT -5
You folks want a dark, yet realistic prediction? I predict that going forward, the house impeaching any president from the opposition party will become the new normal. Toothpaste doesn’t get stuffed back into the tube, ever. Having a mechanistic view of the proceedings rather than an emotional one has it's advantages. To me the Democrats just gave Trump a second term during which he can crash the Administrative State through the Supreme Court. The potential resulting chaos will keep everyone occupied for quite a while, giving them other more pressing things to worry about besides taking chip shots at the opposition. Empowering the citizens again will be a dangerous thing for career ass sitters.
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