|
Post by Cornflake on Nov 10, 2020 19:58:18 GMT -5
We'll never have a perfect election. Suppose someone proves that some law in some state was violated. What then? Do we award that state's electors to the loser? A moment's thought shows that idea to be silly. The violation might have helped the loser. More often, it will have made little difference. Do we do the election all over again in that state? If so, by the time we get through re-conducting every election in which some law was violated, many hundreds of millions of dollars later, it might be 2022.
If there are questions about the legality of what happened in Pennsylvania that can't be shown clearly to have changed the outcome, Pennsylvania's legislature should certainly address those and consider reforms before the next election. But a couple of centuries of sound, unbroken tradition counsels us to accept the outcome of an election if it was substantially fair and move on.
|
|
|
Post by billhammond on Nov 10, 2020 20:47:11 GMT -5
OK, what does this overview get wrong?
By NOMAAN MERCHANT Associated Press
The U.S. presidential election was not tainted by widespread voter fraud or irregularities in how ballots were counted, despite a huge effort by President Donald Trump to prove otherwise.
In refusing to concede the election, Trump claims that he would have won were it not for "illegal" votes counted in several states that he lost or where he is currently trailing. But Trump and his allies haven't offered any proof, and their legal challenges have largely been rejected by the courts.
Nonpartisan investigations of previous elections have found that voter fraud is exceedingly rare. State officials from both parties, as well as international observers, have also stated that the 2020 election went well.
A look at the election and the allegations Trump has made:
HOW MANY PEOPLE VOTED THIS YEAR?
More than 150 million people voted in the presidential election. As of Tuesday night, one week after the election, President-elect Joe Biden had received over 5 million more votes than Trump.
Biden has 290 votes in the Electoral College to Trump's 214. The Associated Press has not yet determined the winner in Alaska, Georgia or North Carolina.
Of the states Trump has most targeted as allegedly tainted by fraud, Biden holds small but significant leads in all of them. The Democrat leads in Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.
HOW DID THE ELECTION GO?
Several states successfully enacted voting measures during the coronavirus pandemic. The Democratic stronghold of California improved its mail-in balloting system, for example, and delivered as expected for Biden. But Trump easily won reliably Republican Nebraska, North Dakota and Montana, all states that also significantly expanded vote by mail this year.
Two decades after it was at the center of a disputed recount, Florida has adopted early voting and allowed voters to cast absentee ballots without having an excuse. The AP called Florida for Trump at 12:35 a.m. Wednesday.
Vote counting was slow in three Midwestern states that went for Trump four years ago and flipped to Biden this time: the "blue wall" of Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. That's because of an increase in mail-in ballots, which the Biden campaign pushed its supporters to use as a safety measure because of the pandemic. Trump baselessly argued that mail-in ballots were subject to fraud and encouraged his supporters to show up to vote in person on Election Day.
As a result, Trump led all three states in Election Day voting, but those leads were erased as mail-in ballots were counted.
All three states largely ignored advice from nonpartisan observers to expand the window for counting mail-in ballots before Election Day. Michigan gave election officials one day, and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin did not allow counting beforehand. All three states have Republican legislatures.
WHAT IS TRUMP CHALLENGING?
The Trump campaign has filed more than a dozen lawsuits in at least five states. On Tuesday night, campaign officials said they would file a new lawsuit in Michigan alleging, in part, that their poll watchers were harassed or turned away and asking the secretary of state not to certify the election results. Attorney Mark "Thor" Hearne promised "overwhelming evidence" and piles of affidavits.
Poll watchers have no role in counting votes.
In Pennsylvania, the campaign has challenged the state Supreme Court ruling allowing election officials to accept mail-in ballots up to three days after the election as long as they were postmarked by Election Day. Trump has also sued over campaign observers allegedly being blocked from witnessing vote tallying in Pennsylvania. And he's challenged the secretary of state instructing counties that voters whose absentee ballots were rejected could cast a provisional ballot.
Trump has won one victory so far: A state court ruled his campaign observers had to be allowed closer to the actual vote counting. That ruling had no impact on the outcome of the race.
Four other lawsuits filed by the campaign have been dismissed. Others are pending.
On Monday, his campaign sued to force Pennsylvania not to certify the results of the election altogether. The 85-page lawsuit itself contained no evidence of voter fraud, other than a smattering of allegations such as an election worker in Chester County altering "over-voted" ballots by changing votes that had been marked for Trump to another candidate.
Top Democratic leaders in the state accused Trump of trying to disenfranchise voters and overturn an election he lost.
WHAT ARE TRUMP'S ALLIES SAYING?
Trump's lawyers and campaign staff say that the election is not over and that they are investigating claims in several states, though they continue to lack any evidence of widespread fraud that affected the outcome of the race. Top Republicans have supported the president's efforts to fight the election results in court.
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said Trump was "100% within his rights to look into allegations of irregularities and weigh his legal options." Attorney General William Barr authorized the Justice Department to investigate "clear and apparently-credible allegations of irregularities."
WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?
All disputes over the counts in each state must be complete by Dec. 8. Members of the Electoral College vote on Dec. 14. The U.S. House and Senate hold a joint session on Jan. 6, 2021, to count the electoral votes in each state.
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Nov 10, 2020 21:17:15 GMT -5
OK, what does this overview get wrong? By NOMAAN MERCHANT Associated Press The U.S. presidential election was not tainted by widespread voter fraud or irregularities in how ballots were counted, despite a huge effort by President Donald Trump to prove otherwise. In refusing to concede the election, Trump claims that he would have won were it not for "illegal" votes counted in several states that he lost or where he is currently trailing. But Trump and his allies haven't offered any proof, and their legal challenges have largely been rejected by the courts. Nonpartisan investigations of previous elections have found that voter fraud is exceedingly rare. State officials from both parties, as well as international observers, have also stated that the 2020 election went well. A look at the election and the allegations Trump has made: HOW MANY PEOPLE VOTED THIS YEAR? More than 150 million people voted in the presidential election. As of Tuesday night, one week after the election, President-elect Joe Biden had received over 5 million more votes than Trump. Biden has 290 votes in the Electoral College to Trump's 214. The Associated Press has not yet determined the winner in Alaska, Georgia or North Carolina. Of the states Trump has most targeted as allegedly tainted by fraud, Biden holds small but significant leads in all of them. The Democrat leads in Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. HOW DID THE ELECTION GO? Several states successfully enacted voting measures during the coronavirus pandemic. The Democratic stronghold of California improved its mail-in balloting system, for example, and delivered as expected for Biden. But Trump easily won reliably Republican Nebraska, North Dakota and Montana, all states that also significantly expanded vote by mail this year. Two decades after it was at the center of a disputed recount, Florida has adopted early voting and allowed voters to cast absentee ballots without having an excuse. The AP called Florida for Trump at 12:35 a.m. Wednesday. Vote counting was slow in three Midwestern states that went for Trump four years ago and flipped to Biden this time: the "blue wall" of Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. That's because of an increase in mail-in ballots, which the Biden campaign pushed its supporters to use as a safety measure because of the pandemic. Trump baselessly argued that mail-in ballots were subject to fraud and encouraged his supporters to show up to vote in person on Election Day. As a result, Trump led all three states in Election Day voting, but those leads were erased as mail-in ballots were counted. All three states largely ignored advice from nonpartisan observers to expand the window for counting mail-in ballots before Election Day. Michigan gave election officials one day, and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin did not allow counting beforehand. All three states have Republican legislatures. WHAT IS TRUMP CHALLENGING? The Trump campaign has filed more than a dozen lawsuits in at least five states. On Tuesday night, campaign officials said they would file a new lawsuit in Michigan alleging, in part, that their poll watchers were harassed or turned away and asking the secretary of state not to certify the election results. Attorney Mark "Thor" Hearne promised "overwhelming evidence" and piles of affidavits. Poll watchers have no role in counting votes. In Pennsylvania, the campaign has challenged the state Supreme Court ruling allowing election officials to accept mail-in ballots up to three days after the election as long as they were postmarked by Election Day. Trump has also sued over campaign observers allegedly being blocked from witnessing vote tallying in Pennsylvania. And he's challenged the secretary of state instructing counties that voters whose absentee ballots were rejected could cast a provisional ballot. Trump has won one victory so far: A state court ruled his campaign observers had to be allowed closer to the actual vote counting. That ruling had no impact on the outcome of the race. Four other lawsuits filed by the campaign have been dismissed. Others are pending. On Monday, his campaign sued to force Pennsylvania not to certify the results of the election altogether. The 85-page lawsuit itself contained no evidence of voter fraud, other than a smattering of allegations such as an election worker in Chester County altering "over-voted" ballots by changing votes that had been marked for Trump to another candidate. Top Democratic leaders in the state accused Trump of trying to disenfranchise voters and overturn an election he lost. WHAT ARE TRUMP'S ALLIES SAYING? Trump's lawyers and campaign staff say that the election is not over and that they are investigating claims in several states, though they continue to lack any evidence of widespread fraud that affected the outcome of the race. Top Republicans have supported the president's efforts to fight the election results in court. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said Trump was "100% within his rights to look into allegations of irregularities and weigh his legal options." Attorney General William Barr authorized the Justice Department to investigate "clear and apparently-credible allegations of irregularities." WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? All disputes over the counts in each state must be complete by Dec. 8. Members of the Electoral College vote on Dec. 14. The U.S. House and Senate hold a joint session on Jan. 6, 2021, to count the electoral votes in each state. It's written by a journalist who probably has no real clue? As usual.
|
|
|
Post by james on Nov 10, 2020 21:26:06 GMT -5
The question was what did he get wrong?
|
|
|
Post by casualplayerpaul on Nov 10, 2020 21:30:57 GMT -5
Pence's nose is pretty far up Trump's butt. Would be hard to hear him if he did say anything.
Pence was a dead parrot in Indiana when convicted felon Paul Manafort recommended him for Veep.
Now that parrot can go back to being no more, ceased to be, expired and gone to meet his maker.
Politically, only, of course.
Personally, I wish him and Mother nothing but the best.
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Nov 10, 2020 21:33:11 GMT -5
The question was what did he get wrong? I suggested that up thread. Try to keep up.
|
|
|
Post by billhammond on Nov 10, 2020 21:35:41 GMT -5
OK, what does this overview get wrong? By NOMAAN MERCHANT Associated Press The U.S. presidential election was not tainted by widespread voter fraud or irregularities in how ballots were counted, despite a huge effort by President Donald Trump to prove otherwise. In refusing to concede the election, Trump claims that he would have won were it not for "illegal" votes counted in several states that he lost or where he is currently trailing. But Trump and his allies haven't offered any proof, and their legal challenges have largely been rejected by the courts. Nonpartisan investigations of previous elections have found that voter fraud is exceedingly rare. State officials from both parties, as well as international observers, have also stated that the 2020 election went well. A look at the election and the allegations Trump has made: HOW MANY PEOPLE VOTED THIS YEAR? More than 150 million people voted in the presidential election. As of Tuesday night, one week after the election, President-elect Joe Biden had received over 5 million more votes than Trump. Biden has 290 votes in the Electoral College to Trump's 214. The Associated Press has not yet determined the winner in Alaska, Georgia or North Carolina. Of the states Trump has most targeted as allegedly tainted by fraud, Biden holds small but significant leads in all of them. The Democrat leads in Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. HOW DID THE ELECTION GO? Several states successfully enacted voting measures during the coronavirus pandemic. The Democratic stronghold of California improved its mail-in balloting system, for example, and delivered as expected for Biden. But Trump easily won reliably Republican Nebraska, North Dakota and Montana, all states that also significantly expanded vote by mail this year. Two decades after it was at the center of a disputed recount, Florida has adopted early voting and allowed voters to cast absentee ballots without having an excuse. The AP called Florida for Trump at 12:35 a.m. Wednesday. Vote counting was slow in three Midwestern states that went for Trump four years ago and flipped to Biden this time: the "blue wall" of Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. That's because of an increase in mail-in ballots, which the Biden campaign pushed its supporters to use as a safety measure because of the pandemic. Trump baselessly argued that mail-in ballots were subject to fraud and encouraged his supporters to show up to vote in person on Election Day. As a result, Trump led all three states in Election Day voting, but those leads were erased as mail-in ballots were counted. All three states largely ignored advice from nonpartisan observers to expand the window for counting mail-in ballots before Election Day. Michigan gave election officials one day, and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin did not allow counting beforehand. All three states have Republican legislatures. WHAT IS TRUMP CHALLENGING? The Trump campaign has filed more than a dozen lawsuits in at least five states. On Tuesday night, campaign officials said they would file a new lawsuit in Michigan alleging, in part, that their poll watchers were harassed or turned away and asking the secretary of state not to certify the election results. Attorney Mark "Thor" Hearne promised "overwhelming evidence" and piles of affidavits. Poll watchers have no role in counting votes. In Pennsylvania, the campaign has challenged the state Supreme Court ruling allowing election officials to accept mail-in ballots up to three days after the election as long as they were postmarked by Election Day. Trump has also sued over campaign observers allegedly being blocked from witnessing vote tallying in Pennsylvania. And he's challenged the secretary of state instructing counties that voters whose absentee ballots were rejected could cast a provisional ballot. Trump has won one victory so far: A state court ruled his campaign observers had to be allowed closer to the actual vote counting. That ruling had no impact on the outcome of the race. Four other lawsuits filed by the campaign have been dismissed. Others are pending. On Monday, his campaign sued to force Pennsylvania not to certify the results of the election altogether. The 85-page lawsuit itself contained no evidence of voter fraud, other than a smattering of allegations such as an election worker in Chester County altering "over-voted" ballots by changing votes that had been marked for Trump to another candidate. Top Democratic leaders in the state accused Trump of trying to disenfranchise voters and overturn an election he lost. WHAT ARE TRUMP'S ALLIES SAYING? Trump's lawyers and campaign staff say that the election is not over and that they are investigating claims in several states, though they continue to lack any evidence of widespread fraud that affected the outcome of the race. Top Republicans have supported the president's efforts to fight the election results in court. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said Trump was "100% within his rights to look into allegations of irregularities and weigh his legal options." Attorney General William Barr authorized the Justice Department to investigate "clear and apparently-credible allegations of irregularities." WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? All disputes over the counts in each state must be complete by Dec. 8. Members of the Electoral College vote on Dec. 14. The U.S. House and Senate hold a joint session on Jan. 6, 2021, to count the electoral votes in each state. It's written by a journalist who probably has no real clue? As usual. Very helpful, Peter, thanks.
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Nov 10, 2020 21:41:19 GMT -5
Happy to help.
|
|
|
Post by david on Nov 10, 2020 21:49:45 GMT -5
To those suggesting "chill" to others, the "chill" should be directed to Trump. You don't claim fraud then look for proof. Well, sane people don't. I hope the attorneys supporting this farce get their asses kicked.
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Nov 10, 2020 22:06:17 GMT -5
To those suggesting "chill" to others, the "chill" should be directed to Trump. You don't claim fraud then look for proof. Well, sane people don't. I hope the attorneys supporting this farce get their asses kicked. I'll remind you that Trump's been impeached already. Those same attorneys kicked ass with that one. At some point, sane people would think maybe they're missing something yet again.
|
|
|
Post by millring on Nov 11, 2020 8:02:34 GMT -5
You don't claim fraud then look for proof. Yes, you do. That's exactly what you do. That's the only way it would work. You see evidence of the fraud and you investigate it to find proof. That's exactly and the only way it does work. And the problem with Bill's article -- the answer to "OK, what does this overview get wrong? -- is that is changing the question. It is principally (and maybe intentionally) ignoring the question on the table: "did specific fraud take place and was that specific fraud significant in an election that is decided not by a popular vote, but by electoral votes of the individual States?" Whether or not widespread fraud happened or didn't isn't even the question. The question is "did fraud that matters in an election of this kind happen?" And that gets back to David's question and why, yes, when you see evidence of it, you do look for proof because that's how it works. Nobody doesn't think fraud happened (this is, in fact, why Bill's article is so carefully worded to say "widespread"). The question remains, did it matter? You may be satisfied that it didn't. Half of America isn't, and the trust in our institutions is at stake. Of course, if you own the institutions and have secured the means by which you always will, you can ignore that half and tell us to go to hell...which is essentially what you are doing.
|
|
|
Post by factorychef on Nov 11, 2020 8:37:42 GMT -5
No one has seen Pence since election day. He was leaving for a vacation yesterday and called it off. I think he has the virus.
|
|
|
Post by theevan on Nov 11, 2020 8:41:46 GMT -5
You don't claim fraud then look for proof. Yes, you do. That's exactly what you do. That's the only way it would work. You see evidence of the fraud and you investigate it to find proof. That's exactly and the only way it does work. And the problem with Bill's article -- the answer to "OK, what does this overview get wrong? -- is that is changing the question. It is principally (and maybe intentionally) ignoring the question on the table: "did specific fraud take place and was that specific fraud significant in an election that is decided not by a popular vote, but by electoral votes of the individual States?" Whether or not widespread fraud happened or didn't isn't even the question. The question is "did fraud that matters in an election of this kind happen?" And that gets back to David's question and why, yes, when you see evidence of it, you do look for proof because that's how it works. Nobody doesn't think fraud happened (this is, in fact, why Bill's article is so carefully worded to say "widespread"). The question remains, did it matter? You may be satisfied that it didn't. Half of America isn't, and the trust in our institutions is at stake. Of course, if you own the institutions and have secured the means by which you always will, you can ignore that half and tell us to go to hell...which is essentially what you are doing. This is the nut of the matter. I wish I could have articulated it so well. Trust in our institutions is why this is important.
|
|
|
Post by casualplayerpaul on Nov 11, 2020 9:06:15 GMT -5
The idea that there was voter fraud in this election is not within shooting distance of observable reality, no matter how many words one types, how hard one looks or how badly one might wish otherwise.
|
|
|
Post by fauxmaha on Nov 11, 2020 9:31:16 GMT -5
If you have 20 minutes, this guy does a good job of breaking down the allegations in Michigan.
|
|
|
Post by casualplayerpaul on Nov 11, 2020 9:35:32 GMT -5
Biden’s current lead over Trump:
Arizona: 12,813 Georgia: 14,149 Wisconsin: 20,539 Nevada: 36,726 Pennsylvania: 45,616 Michigan: 148,645
There are almost no ballots left to count in any of these states.
Bush v Gore 2000 was over 537 votes in one state: Florida.
Again. Not shooting distance.
|
|
|
Post by millring on Nov 11, 2020 9:36:35 GMT -5
The idea that there was wordsvoter fraud in this election is not within shooting distance of observable reality, no matter how many words one types, how hard one looks or how badly one might wish otherwise. In the words of John Cleese, "You aren't arguing, you are merely contradicting."
|
|
|
Post by Cornflake on Nov 11, 2020 9:53:04 GMT -5
Investigating possible fraud is entirely appropriate. Claiming it in court before an investigation has revealed good reasons to think it has occurred would be a different matter. I don't know to what extent that has happened, if at all.
My view may be colored by my occupation. In my state there is a specific rule of procedure about alleging fraud. You have to be specific about what the fraud consisted of and why it was material. Any such allegation has to be well-grounded in fact. You have to have a sound factual basis before you assert such a claim in court. That doesn't mean you have to know every last detail but you can't shoot first and ask questions later. If a lawyer does, he or she can expect to be "sanctioned," which amounts to a fine. Often it's hefty. A judge might well report the incident to the State Bar for disciplinary proceedings.
When I started practicing law in a big firm with a reputation for rough-and-tumble litigation, the litigation associates were told that we couldn't allege fraud in a pleading without the prior approval of two litigation partners.
The point is that claiming fraud is a big deal. It shouldn't be something anyone does lightly.
People who aren't lawyers obviously aren't answerable to the rules I mentioned but I think the rules reflect a more general societal view that is entirely appropriate. I don't think the claim should be made in or out of court unless you're prepared to back it up with facts. That has clearly happened.
|
|
|
Post by brucemacneill on Nov 11, 2020 10:12:30 GMT -5
Maybe we can use a different word then.
fraud noun wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain. Similar fraudulence sharp practice cheating swindling trickery artifice deceit deception double-dealing duplicity treachery chicanery
Pick one.
|
|
|
Post by casualplayerpaul on Nov 11, 2020 10:27:52 GMT -5
Saw a poll that says 70% of Republicans believe Biden was elected president.
Now, of course, polls have been getting a bad rap lately, but they are not that far off. So, give it a 20 point margin of error.
|
|