|
Post by aquaduct on Dec 10, 2021 19:39:26 GMT -5
Most concerning of all is the loss of freedoms. What freedoms have been lost? I just spent a month in Hawaii. Ate out at a bunch of restaurants, from very high end to food trucks. Played at the beach. Saw all kinds of personal political expression, ranging from the common stop the steal right to the incarcerate Trump left, to native sovereignty movement. I did not see anyone’s freedoms being trampled. You are free to express whatever opinion you want. You may get pushback for your opinions. That doesn’t mean you aren’t free. It may mean your opinions are not well formed. Mike So I guess Millring could have avoided having his life destroyed if he'd only moved to Hawaii.
|
|
|
Post by theevan on Dec 10, 2021 21:38:56 GMT -5
Most concerning of all is the loss of freedoms. What freedoms have been lost? I just spent a month in Hawaii. Ate out at a bunch of restaurants, from very high end to food trucks. Played at the beach. Saw all kinds of personal political expression, ranging from the common stop the steal right to the incarcerate Trump left, to native sovereignty movement. I did not see anyone’s freedoms being trampled. You are free to express whatever opinion you want. You may get pushback for your opinions. That doesn’t mean you aren’t free. It may mean your opinions are not well formed. Mike Mike, I realize that you disagree with my conclusions but they were not arrived at casually.
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Dec 10, 2021 23:18:16 GMT -5
... Don't forget, it was less than a decade ago that we were told that we have the worst healthcare in the industrialized world, and it was ME calling bullshit on that --. though the doctors here took no offense at the slam on their profession. Dang, I forgot all about that. And I was there. What I do recall is being told that we had the most expensive out of pocket health care costs in the industrial world and that that expense was: 1) limiting access to health care for those that couldn't afford the increasingly increasing cost of health insurance. 2) diverting too much of the nation's resources (and our money) into essentially dead-end financial sectors. Apparently, we were hearing different things, but what I heard was concern/complaints about the cost of health care, not the quality. I recall no slams directed against doctors or the practice of medicine. I do recall several barbs directed against insurance companies, drug costs, and hospital administrators and associated bean counters, but, no, no slams against doctors or the profession of medicine. None. Actually, I seem to recall that our forum doctors weren't especially happy with the insurance industry and some aspects of the business decisions made by hospital management, either. I am at a loss to explain the discrepancy.
|
|
|
Post by coachdoc on Dec 10, 2021 23:31:20 GMT -5
Just so ePaul.
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Dec 10, 2021 23:32:03 GMT -5
What freedoms have been lost? I just spent a month in Hawaii. Ate out at a bunch of restaurants, from very high end to food trucks. Played at the beach. Saw all kinds of personal political expression, ranging from the common stop the steal right to the incarcerate Trump left, to native sovereignty movement. I did not see anyone’s freedoms being trampled. You are free to express whatever opinion you want. You may get pushback for your opinions. That doesn’t mean you aren’t free. It may mean your opinions are not well formed. Mike So I guess Millring could have avoided having his life destroyed if he'd only moved to Hawaii. You keep trotting out Millring's personal life like he is some kind of dog and pony show you can use to put a lousy notch in your belt. Cheap and Low. Self-serving and Disgusting. But, you sure scored a point against that Mike (or so you think).
|
|
|
Post by jdd2 on Dec 10, 2021 23:53:53 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Cosmic Wonder on Dec 11, 2021 0:50:58 GMT -5
What freedoms have been lost? I just spent a month in Hawaii. Ate out at a bunch of restaurants, from very high end to food trucks. Played at the beach. Saw all kinds of personal political expression, ranging from the common stop the steal right to the incarcerate Trump left, to native sovereignty movement. I did not see anyone’s freedoms being trampled. You are free to express whatever opinion you want. You may get pushback for your opinions. That doesn’t mean you aren’t free. It may mean your opinions are not well formed. Mike Mike, I realize that you disagree with my conclusions but they were not arrived at casually. Well, that’s fair but I’m still left wondering what freedoms were lost. Mike
|
|
|
Post by millring on Dec 11, 2021 4:22:07 GMT -5
... Don't forget, it was less than a decade ago that we were told that we have the worst healthcare in the industrialized world, and it was ME calling bullshit on that --. though the doctors here took no offense at the slam on their profession. Dang, I forgot all about that. And I was there. What I do recall is being told that we had the most expensive out of pocket health care costs in the industrial world and that that expense was: 1) limiting access to health care for those that couldn't afford the increasingly increasing cost of health insurance. 2) diverting too much of the nation's resources (and our money) into essentially dead-end financial sectors. Apparently, we were hearing different things, but what I heard was concern/complaints about the cost of health care, not the quality. I recall no slams directed against doctors or the practice of medicine. I do recall several barbs directed against insurance companies, drug costs, and hospital administrators and associated bean counters, but, no, no slams against doctors or the profession of medicine. None. Actually, I seem to recall that our forum doctors weren't especially happy with the insurance industry and some aspects of the business decisions made by hospital management, either. I am at a loss to explain the discrepancy. Nope.
|
|
|
Post by theevan on Dec 11, 2021 5:06:41 GMT -5
Mike, I realize that you disagree with my conclusions but they were not arrived at casually. Well, that’s fair but I’m still left wondering what freedoms were lost. Mike Lockdowns, mandates, intrusion into the private sector, vaccine passport (which I find especially creepy and an opening of Pandora's box), loss of privacy. There's plenty more. Add to that the drumbeat of propaganda from HHS on every outlet imaginable, aided and abetted by major media on all fronts, including "community standards" policing by social media (including, as it turns out) our own ProBoards).
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Dec 11, 2021 8:10:08 GMT -5
So I guess Millring could have avoided having his life destroyed if he'd only moved to Hawaii. You keep trotting out Millring's personal life like he is some kind of dog and pony show you can use to put a lousy notch in your belt. Cheap and Low. Self-serving and Disgusting. But, you sure scored a point against that Mike (or so you think). He's merely the tip of the iceberg but certainly the only one visible to the vast Cadre of effectively retired folks here like you that are completely oblivious to how much real damage has been done to working folks in the world that you've constrained into oblivion and unemployment because you're too scared to dare to get out from under your bed. I cite him because it's personal to me. I've been to that shit show and still carry enormous scars from it. My heart bleeds for the guy. And I'm not alone. And yet you all go about pissing and moaning about us stupid people who won't take COVID seriously enough to care to protect you (like that makes any sense). I just simply can't for the life of me understand the hubris that actively ignores the welfare of others in favor of protecting your own. It's a bad place we've gotten to and exactly how totalitarian regimes are born.
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on Dec 11, 2021 10:01:52 GMT -5
... Don't forget, it was less than a decade ago that we were told that we have the worst healthcare in the industrialized world, and it was ME calling bullshit on that --. though the doctors here took no offense at the slam on their profession. Dang, I forgot all about that. And I was there. What I do recall is being told that we had the most expensive out of pocket health care costs in the industrial world and that that expense was: 1) limiting access to health care for those that couldn't afford the increasingly increasing cost of health insurance. 2) diverting too much of the nation's resources (and our money) into essentially dead-end financial sectors. Apparently, we were hearing different things, but what I heard was concern/complaints about the cost of health care, not the quality. I recall no slams directed against doctors or the practice of medicine. I do recall several barbs directed against insurance companies, drug costs, and hospital administrators and associated bean counters, but, no, no slams against doctors or the profession of medicine. None. Actually, I seem to recall that our forum doctors weren't especially happy with the insurance industry and some aspects of the business decisions made by hospital management, either. I am at a loss to explain the discrepancy. To pile on epaul's post; as I remember it, the dissing of the US healthcare system has always been the high cost and the limited access that some people have to it, which drives up the numbers of bad outcomes for those who can't pony up for quality insurance.
|
|
|
Post by Cornflake on Dec 11, 2021 10:38:59 GMT -5
I think we're pretty close to reaching a consensus on all these things. A few more posts ought to do it.
|
|
|
Post by TKennedy on Dec 11, 2021 10:47:43 GMT -5
I am getting more and more excited to see who gets in the last word.
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Dec 11, 2021 11:32:12 GMT -5
You keep trotting out Millring's personal life like he is some kind of dog and pony show you can use to put a lousy notch in your belt. Cheap and Low. Self-serving and Disgusting. But, you sure scored a point against that Mike (or so you think). He's merely the tip of the iceberg but certainly the only one visible to the vast Cadre of effectively retired folks here like you that are completely oblivious to how much real damage has been done to working folks in the world that you've constrained into oblivion and unemployment because you're too scared to dare to get out from under your bed. I cite him because it's personal to me. I've been to that shit show and still carry enormous scars from it. My heart bleeds for the guy... You double damn fool. You cite Millring only because you like to stoop to cheap emotion and sensationalism support your edifice of sour bullshit. And to score cheap points. Or so you think. You have gone to that well too often. The government or whatever didn't destroy Millring's life. Retired folks hiding under the bed didn't destroy his life. That is your twisted little fiddle playing your same old sour Fed blame game. John has been very frank and open about his situation over the last five, six years. The Covid shutdown just pushed on a door that was already swinging shut. And now a new door is opened. And there is no good reason for you to trot out John and the pains of life transition in hopes of nailing Mike with a cheap shot. But, you keep pulling away on that twisted fiddle of yours. Yes, Covid has caused great pain. It has caused pain on all sides and the middle. It has caused job pain, body pain, life pain. And oh so noble you are not the only one who cares. The steps taken against it were taken in honest hopes of mitigating the worst of it. Whether they were the right moves or not is certainly open to debate, honest debate, debate that doesn't stoop to cheap emotions or that libels the intent and motive of others.
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Dec 11, 2021 11:36:52 GMT -5
I just simply can't for the life of me understand the hubris that actively ignores the welfare of others in favor of protecting your own. It's a bad place we've gotten to and exactly how totalitarian regimes are born. How typical of you. Cheap and sensational. You are so noble. Others are the demons. Twist and emote. What a watery bag.
|
|
Tamarack
Administrator
Ancient Citizen
Posts: 9,390
|
Post by Tamarack on Dec 11, 2021 11:41:47 GMT -5
A friendly reminder to keep it civil
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on Dec 11, 2021 11:55:08 GMT -5
You keep trotting out Millring's personal life like he is some kind of dog and pony show you can use to put a lousy notch in your belt. Cheap and Low. Self-serving and Disgusting. But, you sure scored a point against that Mike (or so you think). He's merely the tip of the iceberg but certainly the only one visible to the vast Cadre of effectively retired folks here like you that are completely oblivious to how much real damage has been done to working folks in the world that you've constrained into oblivion and unemployment because you're too scared to dare to get out from under your bed. I cite him because it's personal to me. I've been to that shit show and still carry enormous scars from it. My heart bleeds for the guy. And I'm not alone. And yet you all go about pissing and moaning about us stupid people who won't take COVID seriously enough to care to protect you (like that makes any sense). I just simply can't for the life of me understand the hubris that actively ignores the welfare of others in favor of protecting your own. It's a bad place we've gotten to and exactly how totalitarian regimes are born. I don't totally agree. But that was a well stated heart-felt post. - Good on you, Peter.
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Dec 11, 2021 14:25:11 GMT -5
He's merely the tip of the iceberg but certainly the only one visible to the vast Cadre of effectively retired folks here like you that are completely oblivious to how much real damage has been done to working folks in the world that you've constrained into oblivion and unemployment because you're too scared to dare to get out from under your bed. I cite him because it's personal to me. I've been to that shit show and still carry enormous scars from it. My heart bleeds for the guy... You double damn fool. You cite Millring only because you like to stoop to cheap emotion and sensationalism support your edifice of sour bullshit. And to score cheap points. Or so you think. You have gone to that well too often. The government or whatever didn't destroy Millring's life. Retired folks hiding under the bed didn't destroy his life. That is your twisted little fiddle playing your same old sour Fed blame game. John has been very frank and open about his situation over the last five, six years. The Covid shutdown just pushed on a door that was already swinging shut. And now a new door is opened. And there is no good reason for you to trot out John and the pains of life transition in hopes of nailing Mike with a cheap shot. But, you keep pulling away on that twisted fiddle of yours. Yes, Covid has caused great pain. It has caused pain on all sides and the middle. It has caused job pain, body pain, life pain. And oh so noble you are not the only one who cares. The steps taken against it were taken in honest hopes of mitigating the worst of it. Whether they were the right moves or not is certainly open to debate, honest debate, debate that doesn't stoop to cheap emotions or that libels the intent and motive of others. So where's the honest debate?
|
|
|
Post by coachdoc on Dec 11, 2021 15:08:23 GMT -5
Right here, provoked by differing views by you, me, ePaul, Millring et al. By now we know where each of us stands.
|
|
|
Post by dradtke on Dec 11, 2021 16:07:22 GMT -5
Doc wins.
|
|