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Post by billhammond on Jan 4, 2022 19:51:18 GMT -5
There seems to be a crazy "grill wars" going on: The bigger, taller grill wins. Consumer Reports suggests that truck companies, Ford, GM, Ram and Toyota, have determined that it is a selling point. Of course it stupidly limits your view of the road, or big rock, in your path. < grille >The grille doesn't limit vision -- hood height does. Now maybe carmakers are shaping front ends of pickups deliberately high so they can present bigger grilles, I dunno, but there are aerodynamic penalties with doing so, and auto companies are looking for every MPG they can find for their overall fleet average. Because of the below trend, I am flat amazed that Ford's new Maverick compact pickup can be bought in bare-bones trim for around $20,000 and it's pretty well equipped and is getting good reviews and delivers damn good MPG. (Of course, Steve would never fit in one.) By TOM KRISHER | Associated Press DETROIT — A couple of months ago, a woman paid a visit to Jeff Schrier’s used car lot in Omaha, Nebraska. She was on a tight budget, she said, and was desperate for a vehicle to commute to work. She was shown three cars priced at her limit, roughly $7,500. Schrier said the woman was stunned. “‘That’s what I get for $7,500? ‘” he recalled her saying. The vehicles had far more age or mileage on them than she had expected for something to replace a car that had been totaled in a crash. The woman eventually settled on a 2013 Toyota Scion with a whopping 160,000 miles on it. Schrier isn’t sure he made any profit on the deal. “We just helped her out,” he said. As prices for used vehicles blow past any seemingly rational level, it is the kind of scenario playing out at many auto dealerships across the country. Prices have soared so high, so fast, that buyers are being increasingly priced out of the market. Consider that the average price of a used vehicle in the United States in November, according to Edmunds.com, was $29,011 — a dizzying 39% more than just 12 months earlier. And for the first time that anyone can recall, more than half of America’s households have less income than is considered necessary to buy the average-priced used vehicle. The days when just about anyone with a steady income could wander onto an auto lot and snag a reliable late-model car or buy their kid’s first vehicle for a few thousand dollars have essentially vanished. “I’ve never seen anything remotely close to this — it’s craziness,” said Schrier, who has been selling autos for 35 years. “It’s quite frustrating for so many people right now.” When the government reported that consumer inflation rocketed 6.8% in the 12 months that ended in November — the sharpest jump in nearly 40 years — the biggest factor, apart from energy, was used vehicles. And while the rate of increase is slowing, most experts say the inflated vehicle prices aren’t likely to ease for the foreseeable future. The blame can be traced directly to the pandemic’s eruption in March of last year. Auto plants suspended production to try to slow the virus’ spread. As sales of new vehicles sank, fewer people traded in used cars and trucks. At the same time, demand for laptops and monitors from people stuck at home led semiconductor makers to shift production from autos, which depend on such chips, to consumer electronics. When a swifter-than-expected economic rebound boosted demand for vehicles, auto plants tried to restore full production. But chip makers couldn’t respond fast enough. And rental car companies and other fleet buyers, unable to acquire new vehicles, stopped off-loading older ones, thereby compounding the shortage of used vehicles. Bleak as the market is for used-car buyers, the computer chip shortage has also driven new-vehicle prices higher. The average new vehicle, Edmunds.com says, is edging toward $46,000. Even so, prices of used cars are likely to edge closer to new ones. Since the pandemic started, used vehicle prices have jumped 42% — more than double the increase for new ones. Last month, the average used vehicle price was 63% of the average new vehicle cost. Before the pandemic, it was 54%. At this point, Schrier has to tell lower-income buyers that he has very few used vehicles to sell them. “What used to be a $5,000 car,” he said, “is now $8,000. What used to be $8,000 is now $11,000 or $12,000.” Including taxes, fees, a 10% down payment, and an interest rate of around 7.5%, the average used vehicle now costs $520 a month, even when financed for the average of nearly six years, Edmunds calculated.
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Post by billhammond on Jan 4, 2022 19:55:36 GMT -5
It's an Escape, and I'm pretty sure it's unibody, no frame.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 4, 2022 20:01:20 GMT -5
There seems to be a crazy "grill wars" going on: The bigger, taller grill wins. Consumer Reports suggests that truck companies, Ford, GM, Ram and Toyota, have determined that it is a selling point. Of course it stupidly limits your view of the road, or big rock, in your path. I will probably be shopping for a 1/2 ton soon and it will likely be a 4 to 10 year old 4WD truck. Maybe when all the new electric and hybrid trucks come out the price of gas trucks will drop. Consumer Reports seems to have a complete grasp of the obvious given that they're getting between $60,000 and $90,000 or more for those trucks. The idea that your view of the road is stupidly limited is actually what's stupid. And I get a range of 650 or so miles on a tank of gas with a V8 that will go anywhere in the country, paved or not, with a gas station on literally every damn street corner anywhere. The coming Lightning will probably go half that distance requiring some kind of map of charging stations to plan your route around. And then out here there was the winter storm situation from yesterday that had people stuck in traffic on I95 for 24 hours or more just south of DC. That was for something like 14 inches of snow. That got me thinking. From previous experience I'm guessing that the bulk of the less than 2% current market share of EVs are probably in DC and LA. So what happens when you're stuck on a freeway for 24 hours in an EV which will decrease your base battery capacity by maybe 40-60% in 10 degree weather while you're trying to keep warm by draining your battery even more. And you can't even walk to a gas station nearby to fill a can with a couple gallons. Somehow today electric vehicles got even stupider. Assuming that's even possible. I can't imagine trucks getting cheaper for any reason.
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Post by theevan on Jan 4, 2022 20:02:22 GMT -5
My '15 Ram is chugging along fine at 140k. Had to buy another truck for the business. Found a '12 Tundra with 140k for 17k. I jumped. Pretty good truck, tows much better than I expected, but good God that thing uses gas!
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Post by david on Jan 4, 2022 20:55:37 GMT -5
The idea that your view of the road is stupidly limited is actually what's stupid. I do not understand why seeing the road in front of me is stupid. I don't care if a truck is EV, hybrid, gas or diesel, I would rather see the road, and/or a toddler, in front of me rather than some gratuitously tall hood. When I go off road, I want to see what I am driving onto or into, not the hood and jazzy hood ornament. That is one of the reasons, other than price, that I would likely get an older truck - they did not try to create a ridiculously tall front end a couple years ago.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 4, 2022 21:17:32 GMT -5
The idea that your view of the road is stupidly limited is actually what's stupid. I do not understand why seeing the road in front of me is stupid. I don't care if a truck is EV, hybrid, gas or diesel, I would rather see the road, and/or a toddler, in front of me rather than some gratuitously tall hood. When I go off road, I want to see what I am driving onto or into, not the hood and jazzy hood ornament. That is one of the reasons, other than price, that I would likely get an older truck - they did not try to create a ridiculously tall front end a couple years ago. If you're going so fast that an additional 3 inches in hood height will significantly prevent you from seeing what you're about to drive over, you've got other problems beside the height of the hood. That's a popular myth right up with your truck height will lead to rollovers or if you have a certain gas tank location, your GM pickup will burst into flames if hit. Those kind of things only happen on carefully scripted TV "news" shows.
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Post by david on Jan 4, 2022 21:54:48 GMT -5
I do not understand why seeing the road in front of me is stupid. I don't care if a truck is EV, hybrid, gas or diesel, I would rather see the road, and/or a toddler, in front of me rather than some gratuitously tall hood. When I go off road, I want to see what I am driving onto or into, not the hood and jazzy hood ornament. That is one of the reasons, other than price, that I would likely get an older truck - they did not try to create a ridiculously tall front end a couple years ago. If you're going so fast that an additional 3 inches in hood height will significantly prevent you from seeing what you're about to drive over, you've got other problems beside the height of the hood. That's a popular myth right up with your truck height will lead to rollovers or if you have a certain gas tank location, your GM pickup will burst into flames if hit. Those kind of things only happen on carefully scripted TV "news" shows. I do not drive very fast these days. I have always been more of a function trumps form kind of guy. I like tall vehicles so I can see better, especially in our frequent rainy conditions in western Oregon. I am way past the desire for big, macho appearing stuff if it serves no purpose other than appearance. Don't make it a taller grille and hood if it reduces function. You young, studly, babe attracting guys might prefer that, but as you age, and/or go off-road, you will want as much outward visibility as is possible and to hell with appearance. My current 4Runner, and my prior Bronco II, have/had pretty good over-hood visibility. Even with those I have had to try to peek over hoods and corners to see where the road is or where the tall rocks or logs are. To make that a more difficult task so the my truck is pretty or macho, is just silly in my old school book.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 4, 2022 22:46:56 GMT -5
If you're going so fast that an additional 3 inches in hood height will significantly prevent you from seeing what you're about to drive over, you've got other problems beside the height of the hood. That's a popular myth right up with your truck height will lead to rollovers or if you have a certain gas tank location, your GM pickup will burst into flames if hit. Those kind of things only happen on carefully scripted TV "news" shows. I have always been more of a function trumps form kind of guy. I like tall vehicles so I can see better, especially in our frequent rainy conditions in western Oregon. I am way past the desire for big, macho appearing stuff if it serves no purpose other than appearance. Don't make it a taller grill if it reduces function. You young, studly, babe attracting guys might prefer that, but as you age, and/or go off-road, you will want as much outward visibility as is possible and to hell with appearance. My current 4Runner, and my prior Bronco II, have/had pretty good over-hood visibility. Even with those I have had to try to peek over hoods and corners to see where the road is or where the tall rocks or logs are. To make that a more difficult task so the my truck is pretty or macho, is just silly in my old school book. Being an automotive engineer by trade, I've always been a form must follow function guy. As engine requirements like cooling capacity increasing due to things like the need to cool additional dual turbochargers to get those awesome Ecoboost fuel economy improvements necessarily increases underhood volume which then increases the size and height of the hood, etc. And then increased towing capacity, GVWR requirements, crew cabs to carry 6 adults comfortably, and maybe a ton of payload to get the scrap from a basement renovation to the dump 30 miles away out here in rural BFE tends to make everything bigger to stay competitive. It really has nothing to do with juvenile testosterone levels, and the continued accusations of that by you and others here continues to be stupid on its face. That being said, my wife is very happy with our investment. It's been incredibly productive for her to be able to send me in to town to haul my own wood flooring, appliances, and mulch home on her schedule and without delivery fees. Maybe you do want to try it. Of course you're still welcome to any small truck you'd like, but that's not where the bigger market is going. And that was really the point of what I told Steve.
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Post by david on Jan 5, 2022 0:20:24 GMT -5
If a manufacturer needs to raise its truck hood height three inches from the prior year's version to accommodate cooling, then its engineers are lazy or incompetent.
But that is not really the case. It is purely a marketing ploy. Tall hoods = sales. Really, there are no 1/2 ton trucks for 2020, 2021, and 2022 that do not have needlessly tall hoods.
I like most of the new trucks and understand that they are a great investment, but I hate that the manufacturers are pandering tall hoods to buyers when they could produce lower hoods that would have similar, and perhaps, superior aerodynamics and function.
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Post by howard lee on Jan 5, 2022 7:39:07 GMT -5
[...] I like most of the new trucks and understand that they are a great investment, but I hate that the manufacturers are pandering tall hoods to buyers when they could produce lower hoods that would have similar, and perhaps, superior aerodynamics and function.
Back to the future?
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 5, 2022 8:11:52 GMT -5
[...] I like most of the new trucks and understand that they are a great investment, but I hate that the manufacturers are pandering tall hoods to buyers when they could produce lower hoods that would have similar, and perhaps, superior aerodynamics and function. Back to the future? You do realize that's a base trim 2012-ish F150 Supercab with some aftermarket (kind of goofy from a practical standpoint) bed cap that's no more "menacing" than mine or Cosmic's or pretty much any other modern half ton of the last 35 years?
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Post by howard lee on Jan 5, 2022 8:16:47 GMT -5
You do realize that's a base trim 2012-ish F150 Supercab with some aftermarket (kind of goofy from a practical standpoint) bed cap that's no more "menacing" than mine or Cosmic's or pretty much any other modern half ton of the last 35 years?
Yes, I do realize that. My question for you: Is it unrealistic to believe that a more aerodynamic design could enhance gas mileage?
Top 10 Most Aerodynamic Cars By Dan Gray
"Aerodynamics have a profound effect on fuel efficiency and the design studios at every automotive manufacturer are driven to produce vehicles with an ever decreasing coefficient of drag (Cd). If you’ve ever stuck your hand out a car window at speed and flipped it around, you have an idea how drag works. The smaller the forward surface, the easier the air passes."
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 5, 2022 8:33:16 GMT -5
You do realize that's a base trim 2012-ish F150 Supercab with some aftermarket (kind of goofy from a practical standpoint) bed cap that's no more "menacing" than mine or Cosmic's or pretty much any other modern half ton of the last 35 years? Yes, I do realize that. My question for you: Is it unrealistic to believe that a more aerodynamic design could enhance gas mileage? Top 10 Most Aerodynamic Cars By Dan Gray
"Aerodynamics have a profound effect on fuel efficiency and the design studios at every automotive manufacturer are driven to produce vehicles with an ever decreasing coefficient of drag (Cd). If you’ve ever stuck your hand out a car window at speed and flipped it around, you have an idea how drag works. The smaller the forward surface, the easier the air passes."
Historically gas mileage is roughly consumer consideration #498 of the top 500 things people worry about when buying a new vehicle. Until government incompetence spikes gas prices anyways. Then it will briefly go to #1 at least in the media. Then everyone gets itchy about buying a new hybrid, or these days a new EV. If the government can't succeed in getting close to European gas prices (typically the equivalent of maybe $8/gal) for a few years at least, interest in them fades and we go back to maybe issue #420. Since the bump is artificial most folks won't be in a position to act and market share goes right back to the low single digit prime numbers like 1, 2, or maybe 3%. Since it takes 3 to 6 years to fully develop a radically new vehicle it isn't worth a manufacturer's time to worry about it. And Dan Gray is pretty much useless as a serious commentator.
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Post by howard lee on Jan 5, 2022 8:43:09 GMT -5
Yes, I do realize that. My question for you: Is it unrealistic to believe that a more aerodynamic design could enhance gas mileage? Top 10 Most Aerodynamic Cars By Dan Gray
"Aerodynamics have a profound effect on fuel efficiency and the design studios at every automotive manufacturer are driven to produce vehicles with an ever decreasing coefficient of drag (Cd). If you’ve ever stuck your hand out a car window at speed and flipped it around, you have an idea how drag works. The smaller the forward surface, the easier the air passes."
Historically gas mileage is roughly consumer consideration #498 of the top 500 things people worry about when buying a new vehicle. Until government incompetence spikes gas prices anyways. Then it will briefly go to #1 at least in the media. Then everyone gets itchy about buying a new hybrid, or these days a new EV. If the government can't succeed in getting close to European gas prices (typically the equivalent of maybe $8/gal) for a few years at least, interest in them fades and we go back to maybe issue #420. Since the bump is artificial most folks won't be in a position to act and market share goes right back to the low single digit prime numbers like 1, 2, or maybe 3%. Since it takes 3 to 6 years to fully develop a radically new vehicle it isn't worth a manufacturer's time to worry about it. And Dan Gray is pretty much useless as a serious commentator. Alright then. I imagine Dan Gray, as useless as you say, still knows way more than I do.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 5, 2022 9:08:57 GMT -5
Historically gas mileage is roughly consumer consideration #498 of the top 500 things people worry about when buying a new vehicle. Until government incompetence spikes gas prices anyways. Then it will briefly go to #1 at least in the media. Then everyone gets itchy about buying a new hybrid, or these days a new EV. If the government can't succeed in getting close to European gas prices (typically the equivalent of maybe $8/gal) for a few years at least, interest in them fades and we go back to maybe issue #420. Since the bump is artificial most folks won't be in a position to act and market share goes right back to the low single digit prime numbers like 1, 2, or maybe 3%. Since it takes 3 to 6 years to fully develop a radically new vehicle it isn't worth a manufacturer's time to worry about it. And Dan Gray is pretty much useless as a serious commentator. Alright then. I imagine Dan Gray, as useless as you say, still knows way more than I do. Maybe surprisingly, I'd venture to guess probably not.
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Post by Hobson on Jan 5, 2022 9:13:48 GMT -5
We still have our 1997 Silverado. Five speed manual transmission. Gave up camping a few years ago and sold our camper to a neighbor for a dollar before we moved. Since we finished our move and got our old house sold 2 years ago, we drive it very little. Even have to remind ourselves to take it out of the garage now and then. It will undoubtedly be the last truck that we ever buy.
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Post by RickW on Jan 5, 2022 10:14:35 GMT -5
We have a Mitsubishi Outlander, a smaller SUV, that has great headroom and legroom, and the most bitchin' stereo I've ever had.
Yeah, big trucks have been ridiculously spendy for years. It's a small mortgage, and most of the folks we see driving them around here...really? They're a pain in the ass in the city. Our townhouse complex has double garages, which fit two cars/suvs like ours easily, but they don't fit those trucks, so they park in the street. All depends on what you want/need. I had motorcycles, which are useless for anything but fun. At least the trucks can carry stuff. But what a price tag.
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Post by kbcolorado on Jan 5, 2022 11:06:03 GMT -5
I have become the old greybeard in the beat up 20 year old pickup hoping the truck somehow lasts as long as I do. It's a Ram 2500 with a Cummins, I like the truck's chances better than mine to go the distance. I like Greg Brown's take ...
Tell me what is a fella supposed to do When a car costs what a house used to
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Post by TKennedy on Jan 5, 2022 11:54:03 GMT -5
Anyone who has been a serious cyclist or bicycle racer knows how incredibly important aerodynamics are relative to the effort required to sustain speed. 99% of effort is overcoming air resistance, road and component friction are negligible. When you are going 20mph on a bike it takes a surprisingly large amount of strength to up it 1mph to 21 but when aero bars came out you automatically got one to two mph free with no extra effort. A huge benefit in time trials and triathlons. An aero helmet helped and the effect of an aerodynamic shell on a recumbent was amazing. That said, the benefit was mainly for maintaining a higher sustained speed and had no effect on acceleration. I would guess that a lot of fuel consumption in automobiles is related to acceleration/deceleration cycles where aerodynamics would have no effect. What would be cool would be to have a reconfigurable body. For sustained highway driving you would push a button and the body would change shape. Probably not feasible but fun to think about. I see more and more aerodynamic modifications to large long haul trucks where maintaining a sustained speed more efficiently would be an optimal application. Apparently it does make a significant difference. www.fleetequipmentmag.com/truck-trailer-aerodynamics-fuel-efficiency/
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Post by epaul on Jan 5, 2022 12:30:58 GMT -5
We still have our 1997 Silverado. Five speed manual transmission. Gave up camping a few years ago and sold our camper to a neighbor for a dollar before me moved. Since we finished our move and got our old house sold 2 years ago, we drive it very little. Even have to remind ourselves to take it out of the garage now and then. It will undoubtedly be the last truck that we ever buy. Sell it to the Major. You'll get top dollar and he'll get a truck.
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