Dub
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I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,872
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Post by Dub on Mar 25, 2023 9:37:38 GMT -5
I bought that album about as soon as it was issued. Got to see DiFranco once in Cedar Rapids. It turned out to be “the big show” with band, fog machine, laser lights, the whole shebang. I’d never been to a concert where everyone in the audience stood up about half an hour into the show and never sat down again. We were forced to stand also just to see the stage. I didn’t know who her audience was and hadn’t been expecting that kind of show. Back around 1970, going to see Hot Tuna in Chicago, the huge theater was packed but no one stood during the performance. Of course everyone might have been too high to stand.
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Post by Cornflake on Mar 25, 2023 11:31:27 GMT -5
"(as kid, the only pop group I can recall really 'lyric listening' closely to was Simon and Garfunkle. I did listen to the Folkies. I wore out my P,P,& M, Kingston Trio, Dave Van Ronk, Judy Collins, and Dylan records.)" I'd only add Leonard Cohen.
I volunteered to help out at a small venue where Dave Van Ronk played not long before he died. The turnout was large for a tiny venue (a Quaker church). Van Ronk could barely support himself by then. I remember somebody's cellphone going off mid-set and Dave giving her a death glare.
If you don't know the story, Van Ronk had worked up a contemporary version of House of the Rising Sun, including the famous introductory riff that Eric Burdon later used. He and Dylan were "friends" early on, but Dylan kept friends only as long as he could use them. Van Ronk mentioned that he was about to record the old song. Dylan hurried to a studio and recorded it first so that his version would come out before Van Ronk's. Dylan's version appeared first. He got all the royalties that would have gone to Van Ronk. So Van Ronk died in poverty while Dylan is rich but, I suspect, devoid of friends. (PS: source unknown. Could be only my memory of something I read that I found believable.)
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Post by Russell Letson on Mar 25, 2023 12:56:22 GMT -5
The story (from Van Ronk's point of view) is in his memoir, The Mayor of MacDougal Street (completed by Elijah Wald), pp. 176-78, and Van Ronk mentions that it was earlier reported in Anthony Scaduto's Dylan. Dave stopped doing the song because people thought of it as Dylan's--but after The Animals made it a hit, Dylan stopped playing what his audiences called "that Animals song." On edit: FWIW, I first heard the song on Joan Baez' first LP (1960), with a slightly different chord sequence and melody. And here's another version of the tale that includes a video of Dylan's recording: americansongwriter.com/the-time-bob-dylan-stole-dave-van-ronks-arrangement-for-house-of-the-rising-sun/And if you want to go real old-school, there's this: I'm hearing the influence of Jimmie Rodgers in the between-verses guitar tag.
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,872
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Post by Dub on Mar 25, 2023 13:30:56 GMT -5
I think the first recorded version I ever heard was this one with Martha Promise singing.
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Post by TKennedy on Mar 25, 2023 13:56:57 GMT -5
Rising Sun was a fave to play at frat parties in the early 60’s. Especially later in the evening as mood altering substances reached optimal levels. Everyone would really belt it out. Dylan’s version of course.
We’d also do a drunken version the Dylan’s Baby Let Me Follow You Down which as I recall he did credit on his album as learning it from Van Ronk.
That credit was all I knew about Dave VR at that time.
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,872
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Post by Dub on Mar 25, 2023 15:04:16 GMT -5
Our bunch was listening to Van Ronk before anyone had heard of Bob Dylan. He’d yet to make a record. We were listening to the old blues masters including Ma Rainey and Bessie Smith, not just the guitar players, the original Carter Family, Woody Guthrie, Cisco Houston, Lead Belly, and of course Elizabeth Cotten and Etta Baker.
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Post by epaul on Mar 25, 2023 15:27:33 GMT -5
I knew nothing about nothing, but I had a good older brother (7 years older). And when he went off to college, he would bring home, and leave, all kinds of great records. So I had a stash of great records (most of the Folk variety). Dave Von Ronk's version of "Bamboo" (You take a stick of bamboo, you take stick bamboo, you take a stick of bamboo, and throw it on the water) was probably the first 'non-lesson' book song I learned to play on guitar... (as there were only the two chords).
John was (still is) a great brother. One Christmas, he brought back "The Hobbit". It was Magic! And the next year brought "Watership Down" (and Bobby Vee!). A damn good brother!
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Post by epaul on Mar 25, 2023 15:34:05 GMT -5
John turned Dad on to Louie Armstrong, the Ink Spots, and Peggy Lee. They were about the only records Dad listened to. (Dad absolutely loved Louie! When Louie was on TV, there was no talking allowed in the house.)
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Post by Cornflake on Mar 25, 2023 18:09:00 GMT -5
I know of another apparent theft by Dylan from Mose Allison. Russell may know it. The Allison line is something like, I'm not down yet but I'm getting there. See if it bears any resemblance to, It's not dark yet but it's getting there. When I first heard Dylan's line I thought, hey, great line. And no, that's not borrowing. Allison was one of those underappreciated songwriters all his life. It's the only good line in Dylan's song, IMO. Guess who got richer.
I wish somebody would tell the Nobel Prize committee about all this. I'd like to see the prize revoked and I think they would if anybody bothered to tell them. (Or maybe not. Worth a try.)
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,872
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Post by Dub on Mar 25, 2023 18:26:21 GMT -5
John turned Dad on to Louie Armstrong, the Ink Spots, and Peggy Lee. They were about the only records Dad listened to. (Dad absolutely loved Louie! When Louie was on TV, there was no talking allowed in the house.) Of course Louis’s name sounds like Louie in French but I’ve read that Satchmo always insisted on being called Loui s using the US pronunciation.
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Post by james on Mar 25, 2023 20:42:38 GMT -5
John turned Dad on to Louie Armstrong, the Ink Spots, and Peggy Lee. They were about the only records Dad listened to. (Dad absolutely loved Louie! When Louie was on TV, there was no talking allowed in the house.) Of course Louis’s name sounds like Louie in French but I’ve read that Satchmo always insisted on being called Loui s using the US pronunciation. Louis sings his name with an emphatic "s" early in this song.
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Post by Cornflake on Mar 25, 2023 21:14:20 GMT -5
I remember.
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Post by Russell Letson on Mar 25, 2023 22:02:05 GMT -5
Dylan copping Mose' material isn't surprising--though I'm a bit surprised at his good taste. I was introduced to Mose in grad school by a late good friend and musical Virgil from Yazoo City who also led me to Lightnin' Hopkins, Memphis Slim, John Hurt, all manner of New Orleans jazz, and gnarly electronic music. That particular Allison song didn't pop right up in my memory. It's a good one, though-- For a while, Mose played with Zoot Sims and Al Cohn's combo--I found one nice live recording. And here's a piece about Mose from an unexpected angle and direction: forward.com/culture/354622/the-secret-jewish-history-of-mose-allison/But, hey, he was a mensch. "Your mind is on vacation and your mouth is workin' overtime."
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Post by Cornflake on Mar 26, 2023 8:14:36 GMT -5
I once saw Allison interviewed in a book about songwriting. IMO, he wasn't a particularly good musician or performer but he wrote some great lyrics. Perfect guy to borrow from since he wasn't very well known at his peak. That borrowing would probably have been an actionable copyright violation as of 2010, although (are you watching State Bar?) consult your own local lawyer.
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Post by drlj on Mar 26, 2023 8:53:13 GMT -5
Too much soul baring in my last post so I deleted it. Sorry. It’s probably the dreary weather. Suffice to say I have enjoyed this thread and it’s casual drifts.
I actually read a book about House of the Rising Sun that traced its origins and listed the earliest known recording and various other recordings, all which are available on YouTube. I admit, it isn’t a book that would appeal to a lot of people but I loved it.
My favorite recordings of that song are the Tony Rice jazzy version and the Tim O’Brien major chord version from Cornbread Nation.
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Post by Cornflake on Mar 26, 2023 9:46:21 GMT -5
Try enjoying this one before you start Googling:
My friends are gone My hair is gray I ache in the places where I used to play
(I always thought it could have started with my hair is gone, my friends are gray.)
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Post by John B on Mar 26, 2023 10:04:36 GMT -5
Too much soul baring in my last post so I deleted it. Sorry. It’s probably the dreary weather. Suffice to say I have enjoyed this thread and it’s casual drifts. I actually read a book about House of the Rising Sun that traced its origins and listed the earliest known recording and various other recordings, all which are available on YouTube. I admit, it isn’t a book that would appeal to a lot of people but I loved it. My favorite recordings of that song are the Tony Rice jazzy version and the Tim O’Brien major chord version from Cornbread Nation. I don't remember your last post, but I assume it was meaningful, moving and poignant and the world is a little worse off with its deletion. What I DON'T like is Amazing Grace set to the HOTRS melody, even when it's done very, very well. www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0EN_Hmq534
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Post by John B on Mar 26, 2023 10:10:44 GMT -5
Dang it, in coming up with the Amazing Grace video above, I listened to the whole thing. It's really good.
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Post by drlj on Mar 26, 2023 10:45:24 GMT -5
[/quote]I don't remember your last post, but I assume it was meaningful, moving and poignant and the world is a little worse off with its deletion. What I DON'T like is Amazing Grace set to the HOTRS melody, even when it's done very, very well. www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0EN_Hmq534[/quote]Thanks. It only lasted a minute or two. It meandered into areas I would rather not go for a variety of reasons. Nothing lost. And that video is good!
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Post by Cornflake on Mar 26, 2023 12:17:36 GMT -5
"Too much soul baring in my last post so I deleted it." I've deleted posts for that reason--not as many as I probably should have--but I think the last time I tried to delete an original post the software wouldn't let me. The thread then belonged to the world. I thought you could edit your post out of existence. Instead I just assumed that we're all big boys accustomed to ignoring such things.
"Dang it, in coming up with the Amazing Grace video above, I listened to the whole thing. It's really good." It was written by a guy in my denomination's cousin. Interesting history. It's damn good although I've gotten a little tired of it.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Grace
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