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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Jul 19, 2023 15:50:34 GMT -5
Mike
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Post by RickW on Jul 19, 2023 16:30:13 GMT -5
Drugs and alchohol are nothing new. Unfortunately, the homeless problem has been much exacerbated by unabashed capitalism — the cost of renting a place to live in one of the most popular cities in the world, (Vancouver,) has become ridiculous, because no one ever thought that just allowing anyone in the world to buy a place here, in a free country with a good climate, would cause real estate prices to soar beyond all reason. Landlords can get 4 to 5 thousand a month for a one bedroom apartment, and how many people can afford that?
All made worse by the fact that we got rid of all the nasty institutions used to keep those with mental health problems off the street, and replaced them with — nothing.
And once you’re out on the streets, it’s damned hard to get off, when you can’t even get a shower and clean clothes to go for a job interview.
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Post by Marshall on Jul 19, 2023 16:41:29 GMT -5
Mike The red. There will be blood.
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Post by majorminor on Jul 19, 2023 17:30:14 GMT -5
Drugs and alchohol are nothing new. Unfortunately, the homeless problem has been much exacerbated by unabashed capitalism — the cost of renting a place to live in one of the most popular cities in the world, (Vancouver,) has become ridiculous, because no one ever thought that just allowing anyone in the world to buy a place here, in a free country with a good climate, would cause real estate prices to soar beyond all reason. Landlords can get 4 to 5 thousand a month for a one bedroom apartment, and how many people can afford that? All made worse by the fact that we got rid of all the nasty institutions used to keep those with mental health problems off the street, and replaced them with — nothing. And once you’re out on the streets, it’s damned hard to get off, when you can’t even get a shower and clean clothes to go for a job interview. Seems to be a correlation between areas with crazy and rapid escalation in housing costs and the prevalence of fentanyl. San Fran, San Jose, Portland, Seattle, maybe Phoenix. I’m assuming LA is bad. Starting to see the beginnings in some of the larger Montana towns like Bozeman, Kalispell, and Missoula. Not so much the walking dead aspect(yet) but the homeless living in the parks and back alleys. Maybe it’s more of a western thing where it’s a newer phenomena.
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Post by Cornflake on Jul 19, 2023 17:37:02 GMT -5
"Seems to be a correlation between areas with crazy and rapid escalation in housing costs and the prevalence of fentanyl. San Fran, San Jose, Portland, Seattle, maybe Phoenix. I’m assuming LA is bad. Starting to see the beginnings in some of the larger Montana towns like Bozeman, Kalispell, and Missoula. Not so much the walking dead aspect(yet) but the homeless living in the parks and back alleys. Maybe it’s more of a western thing where it’s a newer phenomena."
Yeah. I think urbanization seems to weaken community and family ties and bring on a host of new ills. Not that there weren't old ones.
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Post by RickW on Jul 19, 2023 17:51:34 GMT -5
Drugs and alchohol are nothing new. Unfortunately, the homeless problem has been much exacerbated by unabashed capitalism — the cost of renting a place to live in one of the most popular cities in the world, (Vancouver,) has become ridiculous, because no one ever thought that just allowing anyone in the world to buy a place here, in a free country with a good climate, would cause real estate prices to soar beyond all reason. Landlords can get 4 to 5 thousand a month for a one bedroom apartment, and how many people can afford that? All made worse by the fact that we got rid of all the nasty institutions used to keep those with mental health problems off the street, and replaced them with — nothing. And once you’re out on the streets, it’s damned hard to get off, when you can’t even get a shower and clean clothes to go for a job interview. Seems to be a correlation between areas with crazy and rapid escalation in housing costs and the prevalence of fentanyl. San Fran, San Jose, Portland, Seattle, maybe Phoenix. I’m assuming LA is bad. Starting to see the beginnings in some of the larger Montana towns like Bozeman, Kalispell, and Missoula. Not so much the walking dead aspect(yet) but the homeless living in the parks and back alleys. Maybe it’s more of a western thing where it’s a newer phenomena. It is a drug like no other. The number of people dying here from fentanyl is terrifying — it’s a horrible drug, and it gets mixed in with everything. It’s by far the biggest health crisis in Vancouver. During covid, more people died from drug overdoses than covid, which did finally bring it to the forefront of awareness. They are trying many things to deal with it, we’ll see how it all works, we can only hope.
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Post by epaul on Jul 19, 2023 18:14:21 GMT -5
I get high on life... and beer.
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Post by epaul on Jul 19, 2023 18:34:06 GMT -5
It does deeply disappoint me (piss me off) that with the huge problem of homelessness staring us in the face, this upcoming election will be focused on whether or not boys can wear dresses.
(yeah, that's right. Go after the low hanging fruits, why don't you)
((sorry))
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Post by jdd2 on Jul 19, 2023 19:15:34 GMT -5
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Post by david on Jul 19, 2023 21:09:46 GMT -5
How did we get here - some thoughts:
In olden days the masses expected life to be difficult, a struggle. They knew that they had to work hard to get through life. For my little paradigm, I think of this as the 1700s (and earlier) through 1960s. Later, life became much, much easier for a large part of the masses. The masses can afford homes, meals and cars. From my perspective, life is pretty good for the USA from 1960 through much of 2000.
In 2000 some did not make the step up to an easy lifestyle. Life for them was a struggle, Not due to laziness, poor character, or attitude, but perhaps lack of opportunity(?). They have become disillusioned seeing their contemporaries flourishing. They have anticipated having the stuff that their contemporaries have: housing, food, transportation, and entertainment. They cannot deal with the crappy reality of their lives.
Inability to get a good paying job, and inability to rent or buy a house and have that which they see others have, they take drugs to cope with their crappy life. Once in the escapism of drugs, they cannot get out. Mental counseling is largely unavailable and mostly ineffective without huge resources expended. Those in the downward spiral are likely unable to come out of it.
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Post by dradtke on Jul 20, 2023 6:59:39 GMT -5
It seems to me that Nazis and the KKK contribute to the decline of Western civilization. Others seem to think they're the epitome of Western civilization. What're ya gonna do?
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Post by concertinagirl on Jul 20, 2023 8:03:25 GMT -5
My son and DIL live in Chicago near Wrigley Field. They moved down there three years ago for work opportunities. She is a cancer researcher at Northwestern Hospital and he is a graphic designer. Both are well educated and could work anywhere. They chose Chicago much to my concern. I helped them move. I drove my vehicle behind their rented truck. We couldn’t get off of the freeway as city snowplows were blocking the exits into the city. They moved only days after all of the “peaceful protests” were allowed. We drove miles out of the way. When we finally got into the city, I saw all of the boarded up burned out buildings. I’ve never been in a war zone, but that sight was as bad as what I’ve always imagined a war zone would look like. As we were unloading their belongings, I said to them in my kindest and most motherly voice, “What the fuck are you two doing moving into a shithole like this?” They had no choice as they had signed a year lease. My son has never liked it there. My DIL loves her job and loves her paycheck even more. She is climbing the ladder at that hospital. Long story short, two weeks ago as she was walking from the train to her home, she was grabbed from behind and had a gun put to her head. The son of a bitch took her phone, credit card and what little cash she had. The police told her that he probably just wanted money for drugs. I guess that was supposed to make her feel better? She got lucky and lived to tell about it however, she is a mess. She has taken a leave from work and has gone to Michigan to stay with her mother for awhile. My son is actively looking for a job elsewhere. I told him I will buy out his lease if it would get them out of there any quicker. I am not naive. I know anything can happen anywhere and seems to be happening everywhere now. I am not sure where they can even go anymore. We are certainly in decline.
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Post by majorminor on Jul 20, 2023 8:47:11 GMT -5
I laughed at "WTF...." then kept reading. Dang!
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Post by Marshall on Jul 20, 2023 10:07:17 GMT -5
Tough one, Jan. Best you your family.
Yeah, neighborhoods in Chicago go from great to scary in a few blocks. You have to be careful where you choose to live. And you have to be careful of where you go and how you look. I know a bright woman who took the El from Oak Park to downtown for years. The train goes through the Austin community and the nasty West side. She wasn't all that worried. But she said she dressed like a bag lady when she rode the train. You don't ever flaunt your affluence.
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Post by concertinagirl on Jul 20, 2023 11:28:30 GMT -5
Tough one, Jan. Best you your family. Yeah, neighborhoods in Chicago go from great to scary in a few blocks. You have to be careful where you choose to live. And you have to be careful of where you go and how you look. I know a bright woman who took the El from Oak Park to downtown for years. The train goes through the Austin community and the nasty West side. She wasn't all that worried. But she said she dressed like a bag lady when she rode the train. You don't ever flaunt your affluence. It’s interesting what you say about the woman riding the train dressing like a bag lady. For Christmas my son bought her a beautiful coat. An expedition warmth/weight Eddie Bauer kind of coat. She loved it. She told me how warm it kept her when she walked from the train. The thought flashed through my mind that maybe wearing such an expensive coat wasn’t a good idea. I didn’t say anything. I didn’t want to dampen her delight in his gift to her.
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Post by factorychef on Jul 20, 2023 12:02:12 GMT -5
They need to change the laws for under age minors. They commit crimes and they get off several times with a slap on the wrist. If there are no repercussions they just keep acting stupid. I doubt anyone on the soundhole was a criminal when they where a minor other then smoking pot.. I say the same thing for shoplifters.
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Post by millring on Jul 22, 2023 4:00:31 GMT -5
I suspect that it is because we so profoundly misunderstand evolution ... and then run with that misunderstanding ... that we don't grasp that we're all just tamed barbarians. Humans are not a constantly improving race (no organism is. we're all simply changing. in our case, we're obese, drug-dependent, and addicted, and every new change to our environment culls the herd).
For 10,000 years mankind has relied heavily on religion to civilize us. Now we are rejecting religion (which may or may not be a good idea) and its role in civilizing, but I fear we are, in its absence, moving forward with several very mistaken notions -- not the least of which is that we are getting better and therefore what is newer is superior to what came before.
As long as we maintain the order that religion gave us, we remain somewhat civilized. But without a belief in the foundational reason behind it, that's a very precarious position. As soon as we are uncomfortable, it collapses.
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Post by PaulKay on Jul 22, 2023 7:58:17 GMT -5
I suspect that it is because we so profoundly misunderstand evolution ... and then run with that misunderstanding ... that we don't grasp that we're all just tamed barbarians. Humans are not a constantly improving race (no organism is. we're all simply changing. in our case, we're obese, drug-dependent, and addicted, and every new change to our environment culls the herd). For 10,000 years mankind has relied heavily on religion to civilize us. Now we are rejecting religion (which may or may not be a good idea) and its role in civilizing, but I fear we are, in its absence, moving forward with several very mistaken notions -- not the least of which is that we are getting better and therefore what is newer is superior to what came before. As long as we maintain the order that religion gave us, we remain somewhat civilized. But without a belief in the foundational reason behind it, that's a very precarious position. As soon as we are uncomfortable, it collapses. That my well be true, but that also says there is no humanity without religious fiction.
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Post by RickW on Jul 22, 2023 10:56:48 GMT -5
I suspect that it is because we so profoundly misunderstand evolution ... and then run with that misunderstanding ... that we don't grasp that we're all just tamed barbarians. Humans are not a constantly improving race (no organism is. we're all simply changing. in our case, we're obese, drug-dependent, and addicted, and every new change to our environment culls the herd). For 10,000 years mankind has relied heavily on religion to civilize us. Now we are rejecting religion (which may or may not be a good idea) and its role in civilizing, but I fear we are, in its absence, moving forward with several very mistaken notions -- not the least of which is that we are getting better and therefore what is newer is superior to what came before. As long as we maintain the order that religion gave us, we remain somewhat civilized. But without a belief in the foundational reason behind it, that's a very precarious position. As soon as we are uncomfortable, it collapses. I would disagree entirely that it was solely religion that kept us civilized, and that belief had anything to do with it. There was an incredibly strong social structure, with those in power holding the whip. They were fortified by the various churches, and those who led the churches were some of those holding the whip. Anyone who stepped out of line, out of their role, was crushed, either by their family, their neighbours, the nobility and their people, or their church. It was a long, brutal march to get to modern democracy, some form of equality, and the fact that certain sectors of the human race are only just getting there seems to still be causing an immense amount of pain to everyone else. I will agree with you on your premise that we’re just a bunch of trained barbarians. We’ve come to believe in the rule of law. We’ve come to believe in a modern economy. That those things hang in a precarious balance, in people continuing to believe that they’re true, is a given, though I’d say most folks don’t understand that, as you stated. We seem to be in a particularly fragile state now.
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Post by Russell Letson on Jul 22, 2023 11:35:14 GMT -5
As long as we maintain the order that religion gave us, we remain somewhat civilized. But without a belief in the foundational reason behind it, that's a very precarious position. As soon as we are uncomfortable, it collapses. This proposition never manages to account for decent, civilized individual nonbelievers, nor for the systemic decency of societies lacking the elaborate authority structures/strictures of the Abrahamic faiths, nor for the systemic iniquities and cruelties generated or toleated by those faiths. In addition, observation of how other primates keep things orderly in their troupes suggests that the machineries of social control do not require a supernatural metaphysic. In fact, chimps and gorillas seem to be metaphysics-free. As far as I can tell, the crucial machineries for decent human behavior (which depend strongly on empathy) are installed at various stages between infancy and adolescence and do not depend on supernatural authority. My father's explanation for why I should do/not do something was generally "Because I said so," and my mother's ran to "How would you like it if somebody did that to you?" Eventually, these case-by-case directives and constraints were reinforced by explanations of the extended practical and systemic principles behind them. My parents were both believers, but deity rarely figured in their training regimens. To be fair, the example of Jesus was in there somewhere--though not in rules such as "Don't play in the traffic" or "Don't hit your little sister" or "Don't ride your bike after dark." The most important rule was "Don't worry or anger Ma."
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