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Post by Marshall on Oct 20, 2023 18:25:24 GMT -5
I agree with Rick: "We consume, like any other creature. We will consume too much. We'll wreck an ecosystem." I'd say we've exceeded the earth's carrying capacity for our species and that's causing a lot of harm. But that's not due to depravity. Every creature exists and consumes to fill it's needs without any respect or knowledge or concern for the overall effect on the ecology around them. Man is different only in that we can minimally observe (partially understand?) our effect. But we act as though our needs will always be met. |
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Post by epaul on Oct 20, 2023 19:11:34 GMT -5
It is always "Man alone of all animals is such a greedy pig". It is never "Man alone of all animals has taken steps to be less of a greedy pig."
Nothing but negativity and loathing. No credit for as a society, as a race, as individuals, for having developed the highest degree of concern for the environment and our role in it this planet has ever seen. Instead, we scold ourselves for being thoughtless, greedy pigs, compare ourselves to a golden harmony that never existed, and tell all who will listen that it is too little too late.
(great, so we are turning our kids into environmental nihilists who will stick their hopeless heads ever deeper into their idiot phones because all is doomed).
There is more environmental concern and environmental action now than ever. Period. Individual, group, governmental. Period.
As for that poster on the wall with a picture of that symbolic "Noble Savage" saying all that neat stuff about brother moose and sister squirrel all living in green harmony, the North American Plains Indians that actually existed had no unique "green" gene that separated their behavior from that of any other group of hunter gatherers who hunted and gathered at any other point in the planet's history*. They did what they needed to do to survive. Period. Just as the hunter gatherers who hunted and gathered over in Europe thousands of years earlier did.
There are no "greenie" bonus points to be handed out for not doing what you are technologically not capable of doing. There are, or should be, however, some bonus points for backing away, even if only on occasion, from what you are technologically capable of doing for the good of the planet and the other life forms on it. Never has the welfare of the planet and its life weighed more heavily in decisions made by individual, groups, and governments. Never.
Too little, too late. Who knows. But of all the animals this planet has spawned, today's human animal has taken steps no other animal, human or otherwise, has taken. Steps that have cost in order to benefit the planet. And one day, Aqua will have to ride a solar-powered scooter in order to get to the bow and arrow range because of them.
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Post by epaul on Oct 20, 2023 19:21:00 GMT -5
* and we never put posters on our wall about those other Indians of the Americas, such as the Aztecs and other Meso-American tribes who liked to play soccer with the freshly decapitated heads of their slaves and dumped virgins into volcanoes every time they needed a shot of rain. If not derailed by the European invasion, guess what fun loving bunch would have come to slay, enslave and rule over most of the Americas?
The Aztec Empire made the Roman Empire seem like a bunch of flower bearing hippies. But they don't count as Indians, apparently. Not wall worthy. No cool quotes.
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Post by james on Oct 20, 2023 21:09:18 GMT -5
Wikipedia says Russell Means was Larry Flynt's running mate for the US Presidency. Also a libertarian party leadership hopeful. I maybe know more than is absolutely necessary about Russell Means' life story now.
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Post by millring on Oct 21, 2023 4:16:34 GMT -5
John, I don't know why you think that. I don't think most people know much about Calvin or have strong views about him one way or the other. You're right. Few people know who Calvin was, much less understand his assertions about humanity. It wasn't a useful comparison in present company. Besides, epaul is making the point I was trying to make brilliantly. |
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,852 
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Post by Dub on Oct 21, 2023 10:53:44 GMT -5
John, I don't know why you think that. I don't think most people know much about Calvin or have strong views about him one way or the other. You're right. Few people know who Calvin was, much less understand his assertions about humanity. It wasn't a useful comparison in present company. Besides, epaul is making the point I was trying to make brilliantly. Some of us know who Calvin was (and luthier Luther too). In spite of their legacies, they were not nice people. |
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Post by dradtke on Oct 21, 2023 12:05:14 GMT -5
Some of us know who Calvin was (and luthier Luther too). In spite of their legacies, they were not nice people. I learned waaay more about Martin Luther as a Unitarian than I ever did as a Lutheran. |
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Post by epaul on Oct 21, 2023 14:25:32 GMT -5
I think the problem is that we just end up blaming all white people for all the world's problems when, really, it should just be the British.
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Post by epaul on Oct 21, 2023 14:30:13 GMT -5
(sorry, James. And you weren't around for most of it. So, all's cool!)
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Post by RickW on Oct 21, 2023 17:01:25 GMT -5
I think the problem is that we just end up blaming all white people for all the world's problems when, really, it should just be the British. No, no, no. The rest of us have moved past that now. It’s Americans who are responsible for all the world’s problems.  |
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Post by billhammond on Oct 21, 2023 17:45:27 GMT -5
I think the problem is that we just end up blaming all white people for all the world's problems when, really, it should just be the British. The rest of us have moved passed that now. < past > |
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Post by howard lee on Oct 21, 2023 18:15:15 GMT -5
The rest of us have moved passed that now. < past >
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Post by RickW on Oct 21, 2023 19:21:28 GMT -5
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Post by epaul on Oct 21, 2023 19:31:01 GMT -5
The rest of us have moved passed that now. < past > Rick speaks Canadian, a subtle language that requires words to function like a Swiss Army Knife. For example, their most common word, "eh" means, depending on context and placement: oh? yeppers! what? see! um... offda! hold my beer. maybe. maybe not. pass the puck, hoser! you agree with me, yep? I have to scratch... avert eyes! more dip please. yo, mama! you too? more beer! Quebec, can't live with them... how come you guys get four downs? is that smell your feet or mine? another scratch coming. how bout dat! and ehh. |
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Post by howard lee on Oct 22, 2023 8:49:04 GMT -5
1. I was attempting to back you up, despite Bill's edit.
2. This book cover I posted contains a series of excellent photographs taken by my cousin, who documented the evolution of the residential/industrial neighborhoods of Brooklyn for three decades.
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Post by Cornflake on Oct 22, 2023 9:59:34 GMT -5
I am hearing quite a bit to agree with and quite a bit. I don’t agree with. I don’t think white people need to apologize for the past. It’s past. We didn’t get consulted about history should unfold. We’re responsible for what we do now but not for what our ancestors did.
I don’t think we’re just another species doing what all species do. We are supposed to be good stewards of the earth who leave leave it in good condition for those who follow us. We’ve done an abysmal job. I most species don’t jeopardize the existence of all the others by demolishing forests, and pouring carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. We didn’t didn’t know what we were doing until about 20 years ago. Since then we have known. We’ve acted as if we could make the problem go away if we just ignored it. It doesn’t work.
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Post by RickW on Oct 22, 2023 11:57:56 GMT -5
1. I was attempting to back you up, despite Bill's edit. 2. This book cover I posted contains a series of excellent photographs taken by my cousin, who documented the evolution of the residential/industrial neighborhoods of Brooklyn for three decades. It wasn't a slur on the book. It was a pun based on the title. My apologies. |
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Post by RickW on Oct 22, 2023 12:07:37 GMT -5
We are supposed to be good stewards of the earth who leave leave it in good condition for those who follow us. But, says who? We should be, because we understand the consequences. But we don't, because like most creatures, we normally live in the moment, which is shortsighted, but normal. ...most species don’t jeopardize the existence of all the others by demolishing forests, and pouring carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. There are species of creatures all over the world that regularly demolish their environments. True, not to the level we've been able to do, but they do it. Mountain Pine beetles reduced entire forests to dead zones, because they destroyed the central life form that everything else revolved around. I remember reading an article where people talked about how deathly quiet those forests were, where everything that could move had fled, and there was nothing but dead pine trees. I think it's more a matter of what species are kept in check by predators/disease/environment, because it seems that once those restrictions are removed, anything, even something as harmless as white tailed deer, will consume their way to obliteration. We're just better at it than the rest. |
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Post by howard lee on Oct 22, 2023 12:34:42 GMT -5
1. I was attempting to back you up, despite Bill's edit. 2. This book cover I posted contains a series of excellent photographs taken by my cousin, who documented the evolution of the residential/industrial neighborhoods of Brooklyn for three decades. It wasn't a slur on the book. It was a pun based on the title. My apologies.
I get it now. Thanks for clarifying; I am a little slow on the uptake today.
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Post by Cornflake on Oct 23, 2023 8:06:56 GMT -5
Rick, I get your points.
We don't have to view how we treat the earth as a moral choice but I think we should. One of several reasons is that the results will affect huge numbers of other people.
I also think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than we hold pine beetles. If we're not going to do that, then I don't much care what happens to our species. We'll deserve what we get.
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