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Post by billhammond on Oct 25, 2023 21:17:20 GMT -5
So you don't buy the 60-some court investigations that found no fraud, many led by Trump nominees?
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 25, 2023 21:30:17 GMT -5
So you don't buy the 60-some court investigations that found no fraud, many led by Trump nominees? No. Has nothing to do with who did the investigating. Has to do with so many of them being decided for chicken shit reasons like lack of standing, etc. The rest of it has to do with folks like you who insist on not taking anything we say seriously at all. I doubt that's going away, particularly given Biden's dismal performance so far. Seems like a big deal about a complete idiot.
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Post by coachdoc on Oct 25, 2023 22:07:34 GMT -5
With 60 investigations the sheer number of similar findings lends weight to the conclusions.
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Tamarack
Administrator
Ancient Citizen
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Post by Tamarack on Oct 25, 2023 22:47:29 GMT -5
So a basic principle of American jurisprudence is "chicken shit"?
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Post by epaul on Oct 25, 2023 23:20:13 GMT -5
It is a religion. All that matters to Trump's followers is their belief, their unshakable belief in the face of the anything that would question, deny, disprove that belief. It could be ten thousand courts, ten thousand investigations. It could be a hundred thousand courts, a hundred thousand investigation. It could be a mountain staring them in the face. Doesn't matter. The answer will always be the same. The courts don't count. The investigations don't count. The mountain doesn't exist. Nothing matters. Nothing can be allowed to matter. Just their belief. Belief Uber Alles.
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Post by theevan on Oct 26, 2023 4:24:49 GMT -5
One thing I know about Mike is he is a man of convictions. But he is not a grandstander. He is gentle-natured. I think he will be like a healing balm in a bitter atmosphere. Here's hoping... All of that is encouraging, but I must ask, how do you feel about him being an election denier? I don't think he was a "denier". (Notice I said was.) He voted, along with a number of other colleagues, against certifying the election amidst numerous allegations of various issues. That was 3 years ago. The reporting on Mike, at least what I've heard in passing, is: -Election denier -Anti-abortion and so on. Based on his votes. Of all the things thrown out there, I think the ones that have bearing on him being the speaker, would be his pro-life convictions, being a constitutional lawyer, deeply religious, etc. Not one vote, along with a number of other reps, on an issue that was settled long ago.
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 26, 2023 4:28:56 GMT -5
So a basic principle of American jurisprudence is "chicken shit"? If all you've got is number of cases and not an accounting of why they were decided the way they were, yes.
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 26, 2023 4:36:35 GMT -5
It is a religion. All that matters to Trump's followers is their belief, their unshakable belief in the face of the anything that would question, deny, disprove that belief. It could be ten thousand courts, ten thousand investigations. It could be a hundred thousand courts, a hundred thousand investigation. It could be a mountain staring them in the face. Doesn't matter. The answer will always be the same. The courts don't count. The investigations don't count. The mountain doesn't exist. Nothing matters. Nothing can be allowed to matter. Just their belief. Belief Uber Alles. 81 million votes. 12 million more than Obama at his peak. And Trump beat his first total too. And Biden never campaigned? All the cheap snark in the world can't make that plausible. So you may as well quit trying. You all got your favorite incompetent idiot and look what it's got us. Congratulations.
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Post by millring on Oct 26, 2023 6:49:22 GMT -5
81 million votes. 12 million more than Obama at his peak. And Trump beat his first total too. And Biden never campaigned? All the cheap snark in the world can't make that plausible. And every time I have brought that up, I have been given two answers: 1. Population growth. But never before in history has that made THAT size difference in the number of voters. Too great a percentage of the growth had to be voters and that's never happened. 2. I am told that they know people who voted against Trump because they were SO disgusted by him. But: If I follow up and ask, "But didn't they vote against Trump in 2016?" They answer that of course they did. Which results in no net gain in votes, much less tens of millions of new votes. No matter how much more motivated they were to vote against Trump in 2020 than they were in 2016, they nevertheless did not change their vote. They voted against him both times. Once, only mildly disgusted by him, and the second time apoplectic at him -- but no net gain, much less millions more votes. Again -- no switched votes. In fact, Trump gained votes. (meanwhile, when I respond anecdote-for-anecdote that I know many people who voted for Trump for the first time because they were disgusted by the BLM riots (and how they were praised by the Democrats), The made-up Russian collusion scandal (wherein a sitting president -- Barack Obama -- did far worse than Nixon's Watergate), and the general press coverage of anything Republican, the disinformation campaign about covid wherein we were told (among other things (that there is no such thing as acquired immunity and that 20 million people would die and we would be doctoring those numbers by ignoring any other co-factors). That DOES account for the fact that Trump got millions more votes than previously). Mail in voting was believed in and defended religiously (to echo epaul's snark). One has to register to vote, but once registered votes are cast, there is no back-tracing them. By design. We all believe in anonymous voting. The huge disparity in the number of votes for president vs number of votes for other offices has never been answered. No coatails. Here's a big one for me: The answer was given that "there is no evidence of widespread fraud" .... when that wasn't the question asked. That wasn't the question. That wasn't the issue. And as evidence that that was a huge part of the issue, when the question was truly responded to, it was answered with the charge of "racism" because the populations that made the difference -- the populations that were not "widespread fraud" were the condensed populations of the cities and realizing the truth of that, the only way to save the election for Biden was the time-honored Democrat go-to charge that everyone but them is racist. It was and is sickening. Additionally, Evan is correct. There's nothing wrong with casting a vote not to certify the election in the face of so many questions. It's a rewrite of history to claim that he did otherwise. Oh, and the idea that the questions come from the "Trump faithful" is also BS. I can't stand the man, and most of the people I know who question the election similarly do not like the man. Most I know were hopeful that he not run again. Of those who do wish for him to be president again, it's not because they love Trump. It's because they want to see a wrong righted.
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Post by John B on Oct 26, 2023 7:16:25 GMT -5
All of that is encouraging, but I must ask, how do you feel about him being an election denier? I don't think he was a "denier". (Notice I said was.) He voted, along with a number of other colleagues, against certifying the election amidst numerous allegations of various issues. That was 3 years ago. The reporting on Mike, at least what I've heard in passing, is: -Election denier -Anti-abortion and so on. Based on his votes. Of all the things thrown out there, I think the ones that have bearing on him being the speaker, would be his pro-life convictions, being a constitutional lawyer, deeply religious, etc. Not one vote, along with a number of other reps, on an issue that was settled long ago. I will say your thoughts give me comfort, Evan.
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Post by Cornflake on Oct 26, 2023 7:51:16 GMT -5
Disagreeing about issues doesn't bother me. That's democracy. It's how we disagree that concerns me. I'll give this guy the benefit of the doubt.
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Post by Marshall on Oct 26, 2023 8:24:41 GMT -5
81 million votes. 12 million more than Obama at his peak. And Trump beat his first total too. And Biden never campaigned? All the cheap snark in the world can't make that plausible. And every time I have brought that up, I have been given two answers: You keep ignoring my argument, that Trump inspired more voters to go out to the polls. In 2020 the voting age population in the country was 225 Million. We, as a nation, normally have a dismal record of voter turnout. Usually under 50%. It is much harder to ignore politics when a Reality TV Star is involved.
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Post by millring on Oct 26, 2023 8:28:03 GMT -5
And every time I have brought that up, I have been given two answers: You keep ignoring my argument, that Trump inspired more voters to go out to the polls. In 2020 the voting age population in the country was 225 Million. We, as a nation, normally have a dismal record of voter turnout. Usually under 50%. It is much harder to ignore politics when a Reality TV Star is involved. But the numbers don't match your explanation.
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Post by james on Oct 26, 2023 8:35:50 GMT -5
Brandolini's Law
"the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it”.
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Tamarack
Administrator
Ancient Citizen
Posts: 9,379
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Post by Tamarack on Oct 26, 2023 8:44:38 GMT -5
I will give him the benefit of the doubt, but I have a bad first impression.
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Post by epaul on Oct 26, 2023 9:47:34 GMT -5
It is a religion. All that matters to Trump's followers is their belief, their unshakable belief in the face of the anything that would question, deny, disprove that belief. It could be ten thousand courts, ten thousand investigations. It could be a hundred thousand courts, a hundred thousand investigation. It could be a mountain staring them in the face. Doesn't matter. The answer will always be the same. The courts don't count. The investigations don't count. The mountain doesn't exist. Nothing matters. Nothing can be allowed to matter. Just their belief. Belief Uber Alles. 81 million votes. 12 million more than Obama at his peak. And Trump beat his first total too. And Biden never campaigned? All the cheap snark in the world can't make that plausible. So you may as well quit trying. You all got your favorite incompetent idiot and look what it's got us. Congratulations. I've got me a feeling. Yep. I've got me a feeling. Make that a belief. Founded on that feeling.
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Post by epaul on Oct 26, 2023 9:53:31 GMT -5
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Post by epaul on Oct 26, 2023 10:14:29 GMT -5
The complaint first was, "all these changes are making it too easy for people to vote. (especially the wrong sort of people).
Well, you were right. More people voted.
A greater pool of potential voters multiplied by a higher turnout amongst those potential voters. More people. Higher turnout. Plus those voting machines stuffed with invisible Chinese midgets. It all adds up.
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Post by majorminor on Oct 26, 2023 10:22:16 GMT -5
Either had Covid and the way that may have affected voter turnout. Just due to the societal angst and increase in mail in voting. I get that more people voting from home is less secure than the old way, but it's also likely it contributed in a lot more people legitimately voting as well. And if that's so and I was a betting man I'd say that increased turn out would skew Dem. I think it would actually be weird if voter turnout wasn't historically high in that particular election.
I'm sure that happened to some degree and to the degree it happened I would bet it happened much more in the second election, but I don't know anyone conservative that voted Dem just to spite Trump but I know a number of Repub voters that just stayed home or left that spot on the ballot blank. The electoral count might have been much closer if not for that occurring in those 4 or 5 close states that went Biden.
It's going to be interesting if it actually winds up being Trump vs. Biden in this next election. If it comes down to that I think Trump is going to beat him. Remember, "It's the economy stupid". Then I guess the narrative will be what? Despite the perfect liberal machine in place to somehow surreptitiously rig an election Trump and his voters somehow overcame that and saved the country? Yeah right.
I don't have any particular problem believing Biden won that last election. Population growth. Less barriers to voting. Covid and the shitshow governmental response. Financial crisis right before the election. A very polarizing Repub candidate vs. known commodity Whitebread 101. If that's not enough then you then have to assume there was some what....small liberal cabal or a lone super genius pulling the levers behind a curtain somewhere across multiple states so the numbers came in for their guy and no one knows about that and it didn't leak and that happening survived all the law suits, and all the state often by Republicans auditing?? Sorry, but that's seems less likely than Trump getting a strong turnout and still losing just due to reasons above.
To the Repubs I say quite wallowing in conspiracy theories and just go win the next election.
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Post by Marshall on Oct 26, 2023 10:53:59 GMT -5
But the numbers don't match your explanation. How so?
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