|
Post by TKennedy on Aug 7, 2019 9:23:03 GMT -5
It’s the Internet and attendant devices. It has taken bullying and fanning the flames of embryonic hatred to a whole new level. Tough genie to put back in the bottle.
Trump is a small part of it but seems unable to grasp his complicity or it’s impact.
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Aug 7, 2019 9:24:49 GMT -5
All well and good, Michael, but your studies are old news, we now have fresh data. And it's free data! (though donations are requested). Trump is responsible for mass shootings.
Pretty amazing how quickly these studies get put together nowadays. The bodies were still warm when the internet was filled with talking points and printable "cheat sheets" filled with sorted and usable ammunition for the social media war.
In the social media sphere, there are no tragedies, just opportunities.
|
|
|
Post by lar on Aug 7, 2019 9:39:24 GMT -5
All well and good, Michael, but your studies are old news, we now have fresh data. And it's free data! (though donations are requested). Trump is responsible for mass shootings. Pretty amazing how quickly these studies get put together nowadays. The bodies were still warm when the internet was filled with talking points and printable "cheat sheets" filled with sorted and usable ammunition for the social media war. In the social media sphere, there are no tragedies, just opportunities. This brings to mind the opinion I've held for a while now that the idea of personal responsibility seems to have disappeared somehow. Neither the El Paso or Dayton shooters are responsible for what they did. Trump is responsible. If it wasn't Trump it would be someone else.
|
|
|
Post by casualplayerpaul on Aug 7, 2019 9:44:18 GMT -5
All well and good, Michael, but your studies are old news, we now have fresh data. And it's free data! (though donations are requested). Trump is responsible for mass shootings. Pretty amazing how quickly these studies get put together nowadays. The bodies were still warm when the internet was filled with talking points and printable "cheat sheets" filled with sorted and usable ammunition for the social media war. In the social media sphere, there are no tragedies, just opportunities. Not to worry. Trump is on his Twitter gadget this morning, assuring we are aware that the real victim of this past weekend's mass killings is (wait for it),Trump. He can't pass up an opportunity to whine about being the only POTUS to ever receive criticism. Kind of a defining principle of his reign: no tragedies, only opportunities.
|
|
|
Post by casualplayerpaul on Aug 7, 2019 9:56:14 GMT -5
All well and good, Michael, but your studies are old news, we now have fresh data. And it's free data! (though donations are requested). Trump is responsible for mass shootings. Pretty amazing how quickly these studies get put together nowadays. The bodies were still warm when the internet was filled with talking points and printable "cheat sheets" filled with sorted and usable ammunition for the social media war. In the social media sphere, there are no tragedies, just opportunities. This brings to mind the opinion I've held for a while now that the idea of personal responsibility seems to have disappeared somehow. Neither the El Paso or Dayton shooters are responsible for what they did. Trump is responsible. If it wasn't Trump it would be someone else. The question everyone was interested in after San Bernardino and Orlando was "where were these people radicalized?" Asking the same question after El Paso does not absolve anybody of responsibility. The El Paso shooter's manifesto parrots the same language as extreme right wing websites, FOX News' entire prime time line-up and POTUS's tweets and rallies (e.g., open borders, Mexican invasion, fake news.) You can draw your own conclusions about what that means, but it's pretty clear we know how this guy was radicalized.
|
|
|
Post by sidheguitarmichael on Aug 7, 2019 10:02:04 GMT -5
I just read the article; I missed it the first time. I’m not sure that schools should stop emergency preparedness drills, but in all, a good contribution to the subject. The one area where the authors shit the bed a little is in their discussion about people seeing signs and not saying anything, or being afraid to. I’m not sure that holds water; the issue isn’t so much that people aren't speaking up, it’s that there isn’t much authorities can do. The cops were called 45 times over a 10-year period about Parkland shooter Cruz and his family; 23 "calls for service" (police visits) in the year leading up to the shooting. Going back in history, Virginia tech shooter Cho was a frequent flyer for mental health holding, and while the narrative at the time painted the Columbine twins as victims of bullying, the truth is that they were the bullies, with long records of threats of mass violence before they built 90 pipe bombs and packed up their 9mms to go shoot a bunch of kids. Most would probably be surprised to find out that Kleibold and Harris also had a previous felony B&E record together. The list goes on; authorities often know these guys, but what can they do? HIPA even prevents catching people for lying about mental health disqualifiers on a form 4473. Here’s the brutal reality: policing in our country—now more than ever—is almost entirely reactive, and not proactive. If we are looking for better policing to stop these events, we are going to be waiting a long time. Hell, if there is one thing we learned from Parkland/Broward, it’s that the police may not even help at the event itself, as seemingly inconceivable as it might be. I mean, that scenario actually happened, and kids literally got plinked to death in casual fashion while BCSO sat on their hands. The authorities are not in a position to "stop" these events from happening, and working the punishment side of the equation is futile. The only way to slow the tide is to mitigate the reward side, and that means removing motivation in the form of notoriety and fear mongering.
|
|
|
Post by lar on Aug 7, 2019 11:13:56 GMT -5
The El Paso shooter's manifesto parrots the same language as extreme right wing websites, FOX News' entire prime time line-up and POTUS's tweets and rallies (e.g., open borders, Mexican invasion, fake news.) You can draw your own conclusions about what that means, but it's pretty clear we know how this guy was radicalized. I'm not here to try to convince anyone of anything. I'm just giving my opinion. My opinion is that passing the blame around for any mass murderer's actions is pinning the tail on the wrong donkey. I don't like or condone racism, white supremacy, or any of the other "nutcase" (my word) groups out there. I hate their rhetoric and what they stand for. I'll make this point, though, as awful as those groups are they aren't pointing the gun or pulling the trigger. Is it possible that what they say and write can have an effect on someone who might already be prone to act? Yes. Can it put them over the edge? I think that's debatable. I'm don't know that anyone can say for certain exactly what turns a person with radical views into a killer. I tend to think that it may be a combination of things. In the end the responsibility lies with the person that pulls the trigger.
|
|
|
Post by casualplayerpaul on Aug 7, 2019 11:24:15 GMT -5
The El Paso shooter's manifesto parrots the same language as extreme right wing websites, FOX News' entire prime time line-up and POTUS's tweets and rallies (e.g., open borders, Mexican invasion, fake news.) You can draw your own conclusions about what that means, but it's pretty clear we know how this guy was radicalized. I'm not here to try to convince anyone of anything. I'm just giving my opinion. My opinion is that passing the blame around for any mass murderer's actions is pinning the tail on the wrong donkey. I don't like or condone racism, white supremacy, or any of the other "nutcase" (my word) groups out there. I hate their rhetoric and what they stand for. I'll make this point, though, as awful as those groups are they aren't pointing the gun or pulling the trigger. Is it possible that what they say and write can have an effect on someone who might already be prone to act? Yes. Can it put them over the edge? I think that's debatable. I'm don't know that anyone can say for certain exactly what turns a person with radical views into a killer. I tend to think that it may be a combination of things. In the end the responsibility lies with the person that pulls the trigger. In the end, we are all responsible for our actions- and our rhetoric. Agreed. I'm also just giving my opinion. Constant inflammatory, divisive rhetoric from a POTUS is dangerous and should never be accepted as business as usual.
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Aug 7, 2019 11:57:23 GMT -5
Trump is on his Twitter gadget this morning, assuring we are aware that the real victim of this past weekend's mass killings is (wait for it),Trump. He can't pass up an opportunity to whine about being the only POTUS to ever receive criticism. Kind of a defining principle of his reign: no tragedies, only opportunities. On this I agree with you 100%. And if there were any more percents to be had that could be added to the total, I would do so. Yes, Trump is an infantile, egotistical, defensive ignorant braggart who doesn't have the faintest idea how a president should act and what the responsibilities of the office itself are. But Trump is Trump and El Paso is El Paso and while linkage twixt the two may be satisfying and perceived as important, doing so is just feeding a tree bearing poisonous fruit. What got to me was how quickly, how unbelievably quickly, this tragic event got packaged and delivered to social media to feed its wars and inflame its warriors. And I'm not holding any particular toes to the fire here, this sordid business pervades the web and the inexorable tug is to the angry poles [insert image of a cell about to divide with a stretched to doom middle]. I had the misfortune to go onto Facebook to wish a couple Happy Birthdays, and oh lordy, the battle was on, the lines were drawn and the ammunition used was pre-packaged and delivered for free; ready, aim, cut, paste, fire! I'm starting to regard the internet as the spawn of the Devil, and I don't even believe in the Devil. Well, I do, but she is our creation, not the heavens.
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Aug 7, 2019 12:01:07 GMT -5
But, I really do like Amazon and Netflix.
Everything is so muddled and complicated.
|
|
|
Post by sidheguitarmichael on Aug 7, 2019 12:17:55 GMT -5
Goddam social media. Hey, have any of you started watching "the boys" on Netflix? If so, whaddya think?
|
|
|
Post by millring on Aug 7, 2019 12:43:58 GMT -5
That is my primary concern about "red flag" laws. We can't deny every person with a history of childhood trauma and violence, and a recent crisis point, the right to own a gun. Who sets the standards for something like this? It is a foot in the door for the ability for the government to send people like me to re-education camps. Some guy reports me to the government as a racist because I speak out against illegal immigration and I'm already guilty of a hate crime before it happens. That's the nature of "red flag" law. It allows the government to take away someone's rights without due process. All that is required is an accusation. And, really, that's where we've been headed for quite some time. Men lose their positions because the women of "Me too" could not be questioned. Everything is a case tried in the court of public opinion with right and left media leading the charges and social media spreading it (I'm guessing that a year ago nobody used the word "gaslighting". Now it's everywhere. It gets back to my wish for an app that would give a person the capability to track where catch phrases and words originate. It would be very educational to know who starts the buzzwords).
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on Aug 7, 2019 12:51:04 GMT -5
<Lobotomy-camp>
|
|
|
Post by millring on Aug 7, 2019 13:05:45 GMT -5
See? If I could have that app I'm talking about, everyone could know that that buzzword generated from the Soundhole.
|
|
|
Post by Russell Letson on Aug 7, 2019 13:22:59 GMT -5
FWIW, John, "gaslighting" has been around for a long time in feminist conversations, and it has finally worked its way into general discourse. (The footnotes in the Wikipedia article trace is usage back more than forty years.) It started as a description of domestic or interpersonal behavior and in the last few years has been scaled up to include the efforts of partisan operators to undermine the confidence of opponents. "Who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?"
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Aug 7, 2019 13:23:14 GMT -5
I'm guessing that a year ago nobody used the word "gaslighting". Now it's everywhere. It gets back to my wish for an app that would give a person the capability to track where catch phrases and words originate. It would be very educational to know who starts the buzzwords. By the way, the term "gaslighting" is a term from psychology that refers to purposely altering reality (like moving things around on a desk every time someone leaves a room) in order to make someone else believe they're crazy. Comes from an old movie in the '50s I think. An indication of manipulation from a psychopath. Curiously, the way it's used in this thread seems to be 160 degrees backwards.
|
|
|
Post by sidheguitarmichael on Aug 7, 2019 14:45:50 GMT -5
The gas lamp shines on any within sight equally. Sorta the way of things.
|
|
|
Post by sidheguitarmichael on Aug 7, 2019 14:54:42 GMT -5
As an aside, California is moving forward with bills that would add coworkers, employers, and any employee or faculty member at secondary and post-secondary schools to the current family members and police officers authorized to implement red flag proceedings. Also under consideration is lengthening the duration of temporary confiscation from one to five years.
Even if someone hates guns and hates the 40 percent of houses that have one, the implications should be concerning.
Coworkers.
Hell, I’m a musician, and that still chills me to the bone.
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Aug 7, 2019 15:05:18 GMT -5
As an aside, California is moving forward with bills that would add coworkers, employers, and any employee or faculty member at secondary and post-secondary schools to the current family members and police officers authorized to implement red flag proceedings. Also under consideration is lengthening the duration of temporary confiscation from one to five years. Even if someone hates guns and hates the 40 percent of houses that have one, the implications should be concerning. Coworkers. Hell, I’m a musician, and that still chills me to the bone. How soon do you think it will be until California doesn't have anyone left there?
|
|
|
Post by John B on Aug 7, 2019 15:11:58 GMT -5
Goddam social media. Hey, have any of you started watching "the boys" on Netflix? If so, whaddya think? I liked it. Good to see Elisabeth Shue again. Some scenes were a little... uncomfortable , to say the least. Some scenes were awfully gory (although I liked the effect in the first episode where Hughie first meets A-Train). And a number of scenes were both. Thank goodness we decided not to watch it with the kiddos. I'm looking forward to season two. I have unanswered questions. "Really? You're going to teach me how to outrun cancer?"
|
|