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Post by millring on Apr 22, 2020 10:18:19 GMT -5
This isn't the 1930s. We are already so far in debt that even the false notion of the government spending us out of a depression as the Progressives believe happened is not possible. It is the brightest future ever for the progressives. Up 'til now we were experiencing economic growth we were told was no longer possible. We had the lowest unemployment in 50 years. We had such economic growth that federal revenues were on an upward trajectory -- offering the world the first ray of hope that economic growth actually could mitigate the effects of the debt overall. But the Progressives can do the happy dance now. The virus did for them what was going to take their philosophical juggernaut years longer (and as yet uncertainly) to succeed in doing. I'm still mystified what people who don't work think is going to keep their income coming in, but then, I've never understood the Progressive mindset that believed that economies were best central planned and amounted to little more than the distribution of resources rather than goods and services.
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Post by Russell Letson on Apr 22, 2020 10:43:07 GMT -5
When did "progressive" become a proper noun? I know that there was a Progressive Party in the early part of the last century*, and that there is a segment of the political left that calls itself "progressive," but I'm not aware of a current capital-P progressive organization that "believe(s) that economies were best central planned and amount to little more than the distribution of resources rather than goods and services." I've been a lefty-Democrat my whole life, as was my FDR-admiring father, and the backbone of that wing of the party has been labor solidarity--"labor" including all those who produce as well as distribute the stuff that makes an economy go. "Regulation" is not the same as "central planning."
*It was Teddy Roosevelt's third-party outfit and backed a package of political-economic reforms, a number of which were eventually included in FDR's New Deal.
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Post by millring on Apr 22, 2020 10:51:23 GMT -5
Good luck with that.
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Post by theevan on Apr 22, 2020 11:16:03 GMT -5
Not in concept In execution regulation and central planning often feel and look exactly the same to the one being "regulated" for the "greater good" of the mythical "everybody".
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Post by fauxmaha on Apr 22, 2020 11:18:06 GMT -5
When things turn out well, it's "regulation". When things turn out bad, it's "central planning".
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Post by Marshall on Apr 22, 2020 11:25:42 GMT -5
I know a lot of people who would call themselves Progressive. I don't think they have thought it through to the level millring suggests. But many of their political idols have. They wouldn't call it realocation of assets. They'd call it regulation to mitigate ill effects of greed and short term profit, or something like that.
I think what FDR's New Deal was about was putting people back to work until the natural economy could rev itself back up to support the populace. And that's what is being talked about mostly now. Not some long term new way of doing business. Sure some people (Progressives? Socialists?) talk like that. But I wouldn't put any more credence into what they say than I would the Rush Limburgers of the world. A lot of noise and little substance.
Maybe I'm just wearing my natural noise cancelling headphones.
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Post by Russell Letson on Apr 22, 2020 12:16:40 GMT -5
Unregulated financial markets seem to generate crashes, of which the Great Depression is the most impressive example. One of the first measures introduced by FDR's administration was banking regulation, and eventually the financial sector got its wish when Phil Gramm managed the repeal of Glass-Steagall. One result of that was the mortgage-backed securities bubble, which turned into the collapse that became the Great Recession.
Of course, I'm looking at history through progressive (no capital letter) tinged glasses that see derivatives, hedge funds, short-selling, and the rest of the fractally-ramified fiddles and schemes that money-movers so love as bugs rather than features of a complex economy.
Regulation of financial markets and commercial behavior is no more central planning than are fire and health-and-safety codes. Unless the "central" part is the defining of dangerous or predatory behavior and the "planning" part is designing and implementing mechanisms to enforce the regulations. It's no more socialist or oppressive than running a judicial or water-and-sewer system.
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Post by Cornflake on Apr 22, 2020 12:24:40 GMT -5
I find the new IMHE figures encouraging. To me they suggest that we have indeed lowered the curve through social distancing, although others may disagree. The initial goal of preventing overload on the medical system seems largely to have been achieved in most of the country (not all).
We all want to see restrictions ease and the differences of opinion are about timing and prerequisites. I think we'd have a better chance of making it work if we could dramatically expand testing but that doesn't seem to be happening. We'll have to run some risks. It wouldn't matter if I felt differently because it's going to happen. A couple of weeks after restrictions get eased, we'll have a fix on costs and benefits. I hope the benefits are large and the costs are small.
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Post by fauxmaha on Apr 22, 2020 12:37:36 GMT -5
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Post by Cornflake on Apr 22, 2020 12:43:57 GMT -5
Jeff, I think much of the world is going to be a disaster area. There's not much we can do about it. While I wish them well, I'm concentrating on our own patch of soil.
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Post by TKennedy on Apr 22, 2020 12:52:46 GMT -5
Well there are acceptable ways to die and unacceptable, like being machine gunned or incinerated with napalm is OK, poison gas is not. Dying from cancer or a heart attack is just fine, dying from depression is not.
COVID is just not acceptable right now, death from hunger is just the way the word goes round.
Anyway who cares, I am worried now about those pesky Iranian patrol boats we are going to “shoot down”.
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Post by fauxmaha on Apr 22, 2020 13:11:26 GMT -5
"Once upon a time you dressed so fine Threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you? People call, say "Beware doll, you're bound to fall" You thought they were all a-kiddin' you You used to laugh about Everybody that was hangin' out Now you don't talk so loud Now you don't seem so proud About having to be scrounging your next meal"
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Post by TKennedy on Apr 22, 2020 13:16:23 GMT -5
Live free or die dude in Ohio. HIPPA says didn't happen. Looks like it did. www.nbc4i.com/community/health/coronavirus/marion-mans-social-media-posts-against-coronavirus-go-viral-after-he-dies-from-covid-19/ His family is being subjected to a lot of cruel harassment as he is becoming a poster child for irresponsible behavior. That is very sad but maybe his death will change some behavior and save a few lives. We could all be asymptomatic carriers. Obviously more likely in some areas vs. others. Wearing a mask in public places could save a life right now. I am definitely a little self conscious when I am the only one in a store with a mask. You feel kind of stupid, but I am getting more used to it and I am convinced that it is the right thing to do.
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Post by theevan on Apr 22, 2020 13:26:34 GMT -5
No prob. It's just a bunch of third world Nee-grows. I got mine...
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Post by Marshall on Apr 22, 2020 13:39:11 GMT -5
"Once upon a time you dressed so fine Threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you? People call, say "Beware doll, you're bound to fall" You thought they were all a-kiddin' you You used to laugh about Everybody that was hangin' out Now you don't talk so loud Now you don't seem so proud About having to be scrounging your next meal" Bob - Opening line is good. But after that too many words in rapid succession. Confusing. Hard to follow. I don't think it'll ever catch on with a listening public. Consider a re-write. - C+
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Post by Marshall on Apr 22, 2020 13:47:05 GMT -5
Jeff, I think much of the world is going to be a disaster area. There's not much we can do about it. While I wish them well, I'm concentrating on our own patch of soil. Could be a boom to US agriculture. We (farmers) have the ability to feed most the world. Would require governments to step up and supply aid. (print more funny money?) But it could lead to a resurgence of US dominance in the world. China can't feed itself. Russia has oil, but not enough Ag to step up to the plate. South America does pretty good. They could help.
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Post by fauxmaha on Apr 22, 2020 13:52:25 GMT -5
But as a man of science, you know this means nothing. Somewhere there is someone who has strictly followed all social distancing guidelines, and died from the virus.
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Post by TKennedy on Apr 22, 2020 14:11:14 GMT -5
But as a man of science, you know this means nothing. Somewhere there is someone who has strictly followed all social distancing guidelines, and died from the virus. In a cold statistical manner that is correct. Additionally this guy for all his online bravado and macho persona may have been actually taking precautions and just was unlucky. We don’t know. If however, his death makes a few that consider this pandemic an overhyped hoax rethink their public behavior a bit maybe some lives could be saved. Not only theirs but their social contacts if they are asymptomatic carriers. If those lives turn out to be your spouse, parent, or grandparent it’s not a cold statistic any more.
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Post by fauxmaha on Apr 22, 2020 14:29:10 GMT -5
But as a man of science, you know this means nothing. Somewhere there is someone who has strictly followed all social distancing guidelines, and died from the virus. In a cold statistical manner that is correct. Additionally this guy for all his online bravado and macho persona may have been actually taking precautions and just was unlucky. We don’t know. If however, his death makes a few that consider this pandemic an overhyped hoax rethink their public behavior a bit maybe some lives could be saved. Not only theirs but their social contacts if they are asymptomatic carriers. If those lives turn out to be your spouse, parent, or grandparent it’s not a cold statistic any more. Yeah, I certainly do get that. But I still think you're begging the most important question: There is no science that says the shutdown is going to be a net saver of lives. There's as much reason to think that the attitude displayed by this one unfortunate guy will end up saving lives as there is to think it will end up costing lives.
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Post by TKennedy on Apr 22, 2020 14:55:29 GMT -5
Well it’s certainly an evolving situation. We are passing into the phase of real life human trials which may clarify things. For the better I hope. Nothing any of us would like better than for the liberate demonstrators to be right
Guess I’ll just keep my mask and little bottle of homemade sanitizer and sit back and watch.
The post game analysis will be interesting. Hope we are all around to see it.
Addendum: Just talked to the couple that leases our ranch in the Sandhills south of Bingham. About as remote a place as there is in NE. The wife is an EMT. Their neighbor’s (which out there means 10 miles away😊) wife and mother of a couple of kids is in Scottsbluff on a vent. Makes it real for them.
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