Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 20,477 
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Post by Dub on Nov 2, 2022 10:48:11 GMT -5
I don’t think ePaul believes anyone here is a racist. Not at all. I didn’t see anything in his posts to indicate he thought so.
Neither does he believe that the millions of people who buy into all the Republican lies are racists. He’s not saying that voting Republican or believing the lies makes one a racist either. He didn’t say that and that isn’t what he thinks.
Of course some Republicans are probably racists, just as some Democrats are probably racists. The way our society works (or doesn’t) suggest there must be racists somewhere, if we could only find them and talk with them.
What ePaul is saying is that certain people and groups are working hard to reduce the number of people who might vote against the group’s perceived interests. They do this by trying to make everyone suspicious of the voting process and by trying to redefine voting qualifications in a way that tends to disenfranchise their opponents. They target groups because they are seen as likely opponents, not specifically because of race or social status.
The net result is that black people are targeted. To the extent that they can be disenfranchised, the right-wing oligarchs gain advantage. Targeting guitar players wouldn’t help their cause much since we aren’t a large enough group to matter and don’t vote as a bloc anyway.
The total eradication of racism wouldn’t change this as long as black people tended to vote as a bloc and in numbers that matter.
The Daley machine in Chicago worked on the basis of favors and payoffs, not vote tampering. The most powerful figures were Democratic Ward Committeemen, a party job, not a civic one. If you needed a tree cut down, you called your Democratic Ward Committeeman, not some city service, and things would be taken care of for you. If you were down and out, perhaps you could get a little help somewhere if you voted for the right people.
People understood this and as long as the city ran well, and it did in those days, people were mostly happy.
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Post by Cornflake on Nov 2, 2022 11:09:20 GMT -5
I had decided to say no more but Dub's fine post changed my mind.
We've mostly known each other a long time. I don't think ePaul genuinely views anyone here as a racist. I read his post to suggest that he did think that. Several other people read it the same way. ePaul said that wasn't his intent and I believe him. Communication is imperfect.
By the way, I don't think the "election integrity" efforts are primarily motivated by racism. I think those efforts are primarily motivated by a desire to hold onto power. Racial animus isn't required to explain it.
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Post by james on Nov 2, 2022 11:12:47 GMT -5
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Post by gbacklin on Nov 2, 2022 11:13:20 GMT -5
…By the way, I don't think the "election integrity" efforts are primarily motivated by racism. I think those efforts are primarily motivated by a desire to hold onto power… Bingo ! Absolute power corrupts absolutely ! |
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Post by Marshall on Nov 2, 2022 11:55:32 GMT -5
ePaul was trying to be funny like Jon Stewert or John Colbert. Over-the-top hyperbole to emphasize a point of view. Or at least that's how I see it. I did feel it was inappropriate in the place and time and timbre of the discussion.
But he's cool as is John.
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Post by t-bob on Nov 2, 2022 12:59:51 GMT -5
"Communication is imperfect"
doh
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Post by Russell Letson on Nov 2, 2022 14:00:21 GMT -5
It might be useful to look more at who is affected by the various measures enacted or proposed as solutions to supposed electoral corruptions/vulnerabilities. The attention given to the range of non-in-person voting modes (absentee, mail-in, drop-off) does not affect all social segments equally. Add proposed changes to voter registration rules, the purging of voter rolls, and unsubtle redistricting efforts, and the asymmetries become clear.
It's not necessary to impute racist motives to Stop the Steal promoters or their target audiences--though it is hard to ignore the disproportionate effects on minorities--and on the disabled, the elderly, and the poor. Stop the Steal is a classic propaganda effort, and such machineries will take advantage of any trait of its target audience, no matter how unlovely or irrational.
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Post by billhammond on Nov 2, 2022 15:39:29 GMT -5
Who is John Colbert? What is "composte"?
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Post by millring on Nov 2, 2022 15:39:44 GMT -5
If you think race has anything to do with a stolen election, then you don't even know what is being claimed happened.
And I don't think objecting to being called a racist falls under the category of "whining".
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Post by james on Nov 2, 2022 16:48:59 GMT -5
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Post by millring on Nov 2, 2022 17:13:54 GMT -5
I don’t think ePaul believes anyone here is a racist. Well, certainly I wasn't the only one reading it that way -- the only way it could be read. But epaul's not a very good writer. It's understandable that we misunderstood him. He probably shouldn't write when he's sober. |
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Post by jdd2 on Nov 2, 2022 17:16:49 GMT -5
Stop the steal movements can be crucial--If ukraine had had one when the russian puppets lost, the special operation would not have been necessary.
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Post by John B on Nov 2, 2022 17:25:17 GMT -5
And I don't think objecting to being called a racist falls under the category of "whining". I agree, and if I were you or Peter, I would be pissed right now. |
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Post by james on Nov 2, 2022 17:38:42 GMT -5
IMO Paul has been misinterpreted. I could elaborate at length but I'm not sure there's any point and I have Finnish serial killers to boo on Netflix.
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Post by aquaduct on Nov 2, 2022 17:46:34 GMT -5
I don’t think ePaul believes anyone here is a racist. Well, certainly I wasn't the only one reading it that way -- the only way it could be read. But epaul's not a very good writer. It's understandable that we misunderstood him. He probably shouldn't write when he's sober. Maybe he should be kicked off the forum for a couple months to practice. |
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Post by t-bob on Nov 2, 2022 18:33:04 GMT -5
This political/whining/racist thread has been so weird. I think almost everybody should relax and stop the inefficient communication.
I should and will relax better
The communication 🤷♂️🤷♂️
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Post by Shannon on Nov 2, 2022 21:14:45 GMT -5
If epaul says he didn't mean to accuse other forum members of racism, then I will take him at his word, and I mean that sincerely.
However, I was clearly not the only one who interpreted his post in that way.
All of us, myself included, need to be very sure we are careful about our words here. Carelessness can hurt someone, and sometimes efforts to be clever can wind up being careless. I know I have been guilty at times, so I'm just observing, not preaching.
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Post by epaul on Nov 2, 2022 22:09:41 GMT -5
I would reply but I have been banned.
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Post by epaul on Nov 2, 2022 22:10:09 GMT -5
Hey, that worked. Ok.
The post below is what seems to have lit this particular fire.
Ok. Backstory.
After getting insulted by John and Pete for what I felt was clever and appropriate sarcasm (directed at a movement, not a named individual... and Trump's continued outright lie that the voting machines were connected to the internet and Trump votes got "magically" turned into Biden votes). So, I decided, “Ok, you don’t like light sarcasm, I’ll offer you some sarcasm with meat attached”.
Let’s unpack it.
The first sentence.
It is a fact that the precincts the election deniers are busiest denying are urban districts with large minority populations. That is fact. And as there are no predominantly white suburban and rural precincts making the Facebook/Youtube Trump approved “dispute list”, just those afore mentioned heavily minority urban precincts, that clearly qualifies as “Interesting”.
In this opening sentence, John and Pete are not called “Racist”. Rather, as cued by the first word, “interesting”, they are, in essence, being offered a challenge. Explain this interesting fact. (or, "put this in your denier pipe and smoke it").
I did include the word “fantasizing”. That was an editorial insertion, as I do believe the election claims they hold to are a fantasy, and I stand by that.
Skip to third sentence about "too many colored people voting".
This is clear sarcasm that is based on clear claims and insinuations that have been made frequently by Trump and by other deniers. Claims such as that in these contested minority precincts, “boxes and boxes of ballots showed up out of nowhere. Boxes and Boxes. Out of nowhere. Boxes and Boxes.” Along with other oft repeated claims such as “there were more votes than people, more votes than people. It's shame. More votes than people.” in these heavily minority precincts. My sarcastic response to these Trump/Denier claims was that the deniers are claiming too many colored people voted. Which is a literal, sarcastic, reading of their specious claims. (which makes it good sarcasm).
(and, of course these complaints came from conservative whites. They sure didn’t come from blacks or liberal or moderate whites).
Last paragraph.
‘It’s not about the election steal, it’s about something else’. John apparently jumped to “he’s calling me a racist again” here, but John has not been the topic of this entire post. And as I made crystal clear in my follow up posts, the “it’s about something else” refers not to racism on the part of the deniers, the “something else” is an attempt by people like Steve Bannon to sow enough distrust in the fairness of our elections that they can be done away and replaced by a “more responsible” system (I believe Bannon is a “White Power” guy).
Forget the future, Trump and these characters whispering in his ear did all they could to overturn this last election by every means at their disposal.
John and Pete are not called or implied to be racist in any of my posts. They were instead sarcastically challenged by some “awkward” facts I personally feel they should be uncomfortable with (apparently they aren’t). And, of course, my primary audience was not those two, but the followers of the thread. I was addressing the choir. Further, I most certainly do not believe John or Pete are racist. And I share more political positions with them than they suspect. But on this stolen election business, I really have been restraining myself, trying to stick to stick to occasional sarcasm and ignoring as much as I can. (but I would jail Trump for Treason in a nano-second were in my ability to do so).
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Post by epaul on Nov 2, 2022 22:18:08 GMT -5
I will send this post to John so he can edit it for clarity. (and I guarantee you, when I get it back, it will be ten pages longer).
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