Does someone have a question about the racial implications

[epaul]

present in the genesis of the "Stolen Election" movement?

("genesis" refers to the characters (like Steve Bannon) who cooked the "Steal" up, not those who have been sucked into their concocted web of lies)

There has been no "stop the steal" questioning of the vote in rural areas or the suburbs (both predominantly white). The charges all have centered around the vote counts and practices in heavily minority precincts (black/Hispanic). Why this is is a fair question. It is a glaringly obvious question. Black and White.

My answer to it is that a cabal of Steve Bannon-type power brokers and manipulators have concluded that those representing their world-view will, due to the changing makeup of the electorate, no longer be able to prevail in a fair and open national election. Their goal therefore is to create a distrust and suspicion of our democratic electoral process, a distrust and suspicion they can manipulate to destroy the system they can no longer prevail in.

Repeat. The Bannonite goal: If they can't win following the system, tear down the system and install a new one, one that advantages them and their goals. And in Trump, they have found the perfect greedy reckless idiot who will, without thought or reflection, spout any lie they feed him regardless of the damaging consequences to this nation.

You have your conspiracies, I have mine. There is a rot at the heart of the "Stop the Steal" movement. A deep and foul rot.

[Cornflake]

epaul, with fondness and respect, I disagree with you.

"There has been no 'stop the steal' questioning of the vote in rural areas or the suburbs (both predominantly white). The charges all have centered around the vote counts and practices in heavily minority precincts (black/Hispanic)."

Correlation is not causation. You could also accurately say that the vote has mostly been questioned in Democratic areas rather than Republican ones. Or that suspicions have focused on urban areas rather than rural ones.

I can't look into the hearts of others here but I'm not going to assume the worst.

[epaul]

There is a clear and fundamental difference between those who create a lie and those who are sucked into it. Manipulators manipulate. That is what they do and they are damn good at it. If that hasn't been clear in every post of mine on this matter, re-read this one.

[gbacklin]

We just had a thread locked because of racial overtones, do we really want to have this one delve into the bottomless pit ?

[james]

Morgan is not always the sagest of individuals.

[Russell Letson]

First: Anxiety about election-tampering and electoral-system manipulation is pretty much as old as modern, western-democracy elections. Before 1832, the British system included "rotten boroughs" that had few voters but full Parliamentary clout--and they could be easily controlled by patrons rich enough to buy their seats. American election laws arose and have evolved in response to actual corruption and manipulation by political machines--some of this is covered in Tyler Anbinder's excellent Five Points--and as Bruce never tires of reminding us, for years Chicago was run by a well-oiled Democratic machine. And electoral systems in the post-Reconstruction Jim Crow south were devised specifically to suppress the black vote.

Second: Laws and regulations evolved to correct those practices, with the result that widespread, systematic cheating or dysfunction has become minimal. That is, fraudulent voting is non-zero but so minor as to not affect election results outside of a handful of outlier cases, generally in small, local elections or in primaries.

Third: Current anxieties about election fraud and manipulation are uncoupled from the facts about actual fraud and flaws and have been promoted and amplified by interested parties (generally Trumpists) despite the absence of sufficient evidence. They have managed to contrive multiple scenarios that take hold in the imaginations of anxious or resentful partisans despite failing to be sustainable in the courts or by researchers. It's a nifty organizing approach, partly because it can be clothed in language about "reform" or "integrity." That the targets for such reforms are the Other Side (or even just Others) can be shrugged off.

Fourth: Election-fraud anxieties have proved to be useful for fund-raisers and for local/state politicians and for those who seek to re-engineer parts of the electoral and election-regulatory system in their favor.

Last: A useful overview. I know, it's the WaPo, but since this fact-checking piece was right in front of me this morning and it's giftable, here it is outside the paywall. But its conclusions aren't all that different from the coverage and analysis I've been reading for several years.

wapo.st/3fqn8sk

[epaul]

There was some mis-placed whining in the Daily that prompted this thread.

There is an elephant in the "Stop the Steal" room. And it is fair and right to question it. Coincidence, curiosity, or something else, the created suspicion isn't just directed at Democrat and Urban. Minority is the clear third leg of this triangle.

Democrat, Urban, and Minority. There is a clear and obvious confluence twix the three in the genesis of the "Stop the Steal" movement. And it is reasonable to note it and question it.

Questions and accusations go both ways. Some call "Election Steal" at every opportunity. That does not mean they are calling some folks on this board thieves and crooks. I am calling into question the clear focus on the minority vote in the "Stop the Steal" movement. That does not mean I am calling some folks on this board racists. I'm just looking at something as big and clear as the moon... and concluding characters like Steve Bannon are behind it. And I have my ideas as to why.

[gbacklin]

Nov 1, 2022 12:54:57 GMT -5 james said:

Morgan is not always the sagest of individuals.

I wasnt posting to judge his character, as that is purely subjective and highly opinionated either way. I posted that because in this case he has a point in my opinion, which opinions have basis in some fact, some reason and some emotion. If you want to get scientific and purely digital (for example in photoshop RGB) a black person is not black, a white person is not white, an American Indian is not red etc.

Our civilization creates tags to categorize everything. Does vaccinated/unvaccinated ring a bell ? Then after the categorization, there is the divide and vilify one over the other. I dont think we will ever learn, and hopes that we will ever eliminate the constant practice of this creating labels to divide and spread hate.

Of course then there is the subject of the banjo.

[epaul]

And by the way, there is little in the Democrat, Urban, Minority circle of electoral interests that favor me or that I favor in return. I am grateful that the electoral college allows North Dakota to have a weighted advantage in the system and that small rural states can punch over their weight class.

But that is all part of our electoral system. One that has served us well.

The progenitors of the "Stop the Steal" movement, with Trump as the idiot mouthpiece, are seeking at every opportunity to discredit our electoral system. They savage the good men and women, of all parties and persuasions, who work to make our democracy work. The vicious and personal attacks led by Trump and those he unwittingly serves on any person who doesn't stoop to lick his dirty boot is beyond despicable, and the attack on the integrity of the good people who work to make our elections work is far worse.

[gbacklin]

Nov 1, 2022 13:03:03 GMT -5 epaul said:

There was some mis-placed whining in the Daily that prompted this thread...

Which I believe led it to being locked. That is all I was commenting on. Will this delve into the same bottomless pit ?

It's a shame, as we had quite a run without having to lock a thread.

[gbacklin]

Nov 1, 2022 13:23:29 GMT -5 epaul said:

And by the way, there is little in the Democrat, Urban, Minority circle of electoral interests that favor me or that I favor in return. I am grateful that the electoral college allows North Dakota to have a weighted advantage in the system and that small rural states can punch over their weight class.

But that is all part of our electoral system. One that has served us well.

The progenitors of the "Stop the Steal" movement, with Trump as the idiot mouthpiece, are seeking at every opportunity to discredit our electoral system. They savage the good men and women, of all parties and persuasions, who work to make our democracy work. The vicious and personal attacks led by Trump and those he unwittingly serves on any person who doesn't stoop to lick his dirty boot is beyond despicable, and the attack on the integrity of the good people who work to make our elections work is far worse.

There are a lot of folks who have wanted to abolish the electoral collage system.

But that is all part of our electoral system. One that has served us well.

And I agree, it has served us well.

[james]

Nov 1, 2022 13:19:20 GMT -5 gbacklin said:

Nov 1, 2022 12:54:57 GMT -5 james said:

Morgan is not always the sagest of individuals.

I wasnt posting to judge his character, as that is purely subjective and highly opinionated either way. I posted that because in this case he has a point in my opinion, which opinions have basis in some fact, some reason and some emotion. If you want to get scientific and purely digital (for example in photoshop RGB) a black person is not black, a white person is not white, an American Indian is not red etc.

Our civilization creates tags to categorize everything. Does vaccinated/unvaccinated ring a bell ? Then after the categorization, there is the divide and vilify one over the other. I dont think we will ever learn, and hopes that we will ever eliminate the constant practice of this creating labels to divide and spread hate.

Of course then there is the subject of the banjo. 

Interviewer - "How are we going to get rid of racism?"

MF - "Stop talking about it. I'm going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man"

I'm going to be open to the possibility or probability that Morgan has more to say on the matter of ending racism in the US than this one minute clip allows.

Otherwise, one wonders whether, likewise, his prescription for ending sexism/male chauvinism in the US be that men and women should stop talking about it and stop referring to  each other as men and women?

[aquaduct]

So you're saying that black people and other minorities are either too stupid or incompetent to make it to a polling place and vote on election day? Funny all of them around here don't seem to have a problem with it. And they'd all probably break your teeth for saying that.

Does North Dakota even have any black people or is that just what's claimed down at the Hobo House?

[gbacklin]

Nov 1, 2022 13:50:48 GMT -5 james said:

...Otherwise, one wonders whether, likewise, his prescription for ending sexism/male chauvinism in the US be that men and women should stop talking about it and stop referring to  each other as men and women?

If Im up on the latest, there is no more men and women, it is how you identify...


The tongue in cheek comment I always make is "If there is a thing such as reincarnation, Im coming back as a fire hydrant, so there will be an actual reason to be pissed upon..."

[majorminor]

Never crossed my mind that Peter and John questioning the election integrity was racially motivated. Really bothered me when I saw that posted.

[epaul]

Oh, for Christ's sake~

[Marshall]

Elections used to be manipulated more than they are now. The old meme that Mayor Dailey got Kennedy elected by having a lot of dead people show up at the polls. I don't know the specifics, but history tells us there were shenanigans. I think it is much harder now to do that kind of stuff on any scale that makes a difference. Though there are instances where the margin of "victory" is so close that any illegal scheme can have a critical factor.

I don't see "Race" as a direct objective of election fraud issues. It's inherent and underlying. But the heart of it is seeing one's own lifestyle and beliefs being contradicted by a culture that is not their own. I've often thought of asking forumites how many black or hispanic people do you see/interact with every day? I venture very few. How many homosexuals? How many Trans, for crying out loud. The truth is for most of us I expect it's very few. I have a black son-in-law and a handful of mixed race grandkids. When we get together with Trevor's family they are all lovely wonderful people. Their from a different culture. But very good human beings. But even with that, my daily life is extremely lily white.

I find it fascinating when I go to the suburban Mall (10 miles away) to walk indoors in winter, how wildly diverse the population is. I'd say whites are less than 50% of the crowd.

So, what am I saying? I guess I'm trying to say that many people feel like the politics of the day do not speak to their issues and concerns. And that they impose the values and issues of others (some mostly invisible to them minorities' concerns) over their own.

Stop the Steal is really about stopping stealing my life style and giving it to someone else who I don't know or particularly care about, or think is any more deserving than I am. I didn't do anything to put them in whatever situation they are in. Why should I have to change my life for them.

[Marshall]

Plus there's a general mistrust we all have in our elected officials. And government as a whole. Even the best of intentions, when scaled up to macro proportion laws and regulations, somehow seem to miss their target and do nearly as much harm as good. And they take on a life and permanency of their own.

[jdd2]

If I'm not getting mine (or something), then you can't get anything either.

[Shannon]

Nov 1, 2022 19:49:12 GMT -5 majorminor said:

Never crossed my mind that Peter and John questioning the election integrity was racially motivated. Really bothered me when I saw that posted.

Absolutely.

Maybe that wasn't the intent of the person who posted it, but that's how I read it.

I was shocked and sad, and I still am. It makes me wonder about my future participation here.