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Post by aquaduct on May 30, 2024 21:05:51 GMT -5
Yup. Score one for the neofascist thugs y'all worship. I've got a feeling Trump just locked in a victory in November. Have fun. Peter, the neo-fascist thugs are the ones who marched in Charlottesville with tiki torches, and their ilk.
Hmmm, I thought it was more like Antifa and BLM in cities like Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, etc. But maybe that's passe these days. What's that group that's all the rage on college campus' today. Something about from the river to the sea? Yeah, you're right. It's all about Charlottesville. How long ago was that? Funny they haven't shown up much since then. |
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Post by Marshall on May 31, 2024 8:16:53 GMT -5
I gotta believe his lawyers did a mediocre job during jury selection.
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Post by Cornflake on May 31, 2024 8:38:13 GMT -5
Jury selection is hard. You can ask all the questions in the world and you're still not sure what you're getting.
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Post by TKennedy on May 31, 2024 8:45:48 GMT -5
I watched the Todd Blanche interview on Fox. He emphasized the fact that his client was heavily involved in the defense strategy. He was careful to phrase it in a complimentary manner but may have been sending a subtle signal.
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Tamarack
Administrator
Ancient Citizen
Posts: 9,557
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Post by Tamarack on May 31, 2024 9:00:26 GMT -5
I am most disgusted by the likes of Mike Johnson (two heartbeats away from the presidency), JD Vance, and others who made disparaging comments about the judge, the courts, and the US legal system both before and after the verdict. These people are lawyers -- the bullshit they are spewing is contrary to the oaths they swore as attorneys, and their role as "officers of the court". It's not too much to say that they are disgraces to their profession, or at least they sold out any integrity they once had in their loyalty to Trump. (I don't think it matters that they are no longer practicing attorneys. In my opinion, one's profession is a lifelong commitment)
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Post by theevan on May 31, 2024 9:27:07 GMT -5
I have no argument with the verdict...I wasn't there. But the whole augers a troubling future for our country.
The DA who brought charges campaigned on getting Trump.
It was clearly orchestrated (location, content and especially timing) in hopes of destroying, or at least hampering, Trump's campaign.
Lots more to be said along these lines. Weaponizing our justice system. Third-world stuff.
To me it's all part of the ramping-up of us-vs-them recriminations by each party. Whichever side holds the reins one-ups the other in ugliness. The next round will be even worse.
This is what our country has come to? Running for president are these two? The loudmouth (but capable) felon vs. the doddering puppet-on-a-string.
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Post by aquaduct on May 31, 2024 9:37:41 GMT -5
I have no argument with the verdict...I wasn't there. But the whole augers a troubling future for our country. The DA who brought charges campaigned on getting Trump. It was clearly orchestrated (location, content and especially timing) in hopes of destroying, or at least hampering, Trump's campaign. Lots more to be said along these lines. Weaponizing our justice system. Third-world stuff. To me it's all part of the ramping-up of us-vs-them recriminations by each party. Whichever side holds the reins one-ups the other in ugliness. The next round will be even worse. This is what our country has come to? Running for president are these two? The loudmouth (but capable) felon vs. the doddering puppet-on-a-string. Huzzah! |
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Post by epaul on May 31, 2024 10:51:32 GMT -5
Never mind the DA. The case was decided by 12 American citizens who heard the arguments and viewed the evidence. And the verdict was 12-0. 12 zip!
All the Trump blathering about Biden this, crooked that, bad judge, bad DA, so unfair, so unfair, unfair, unfair, unfair, is Trumpian bull. 12 American citizens heard the arguments and considered the evidence... and it was 12-zip on all 34 counts. 12-zip!
That should mean something... but to Trump and the Trumpians, it doesn't.
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Post by epaul on May 31, 2024 10:58:15 GMT -5
And if the verdict is overturned on an appeal, that will mean something, too. We have a justice system in this country. Without it we have nothing. Let it work. And accept its work.
Trump does not and will not accept or believe in the linchpin that holds this country together, our justice system. He only believes in what serves him and would destroy all else as long as he floats to the top in the aftermath.
Fine for him, not fine for those who support him through his every bald-faced self-serving lie.
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Post by theevan on May 31, 2024 11:30:53 GMT -5
Never mind the DA. The case was decided by 12 American citizens who heard the arguments and viewed the evidence. And the verdict was 12-0. 12 zip! All the Trump blathering about Biden this, crooked that, bad judge, bad DA, so unfair, so unfair, unfair, unfair, unfair, is Trumpian bull. 12 American citizens heard the arguments and considered the evidence... and it was 12-zip on all 34 counts. 12-zip! That should mean something... but to Trump and the Trumpians, it doesn't. As I said, I have no argument with the outcome. Throw him in jail for all I care. I have concerns about the careful orchestration of who, when, where. The aim was to get Orange in order to affect the presidential election. That is troubling. And should be for any American. |
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Post by epaul on May 31, 2024 12:04:30 GMT -5
I can see that aspect of it (without agreeing or disagreeing with it). As a nation healing compromise, I would propose throwing both the DA and Trump in jail for ninety days to be a fair and equitable outcome.
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Post by Cornflake on May 31, 2024 12:06:27 GMT -5
epaul, I think you've pretty much nailed it.
"I have concerns about the careful orchestration of who, when, where. The aim was to get Orange in order to affect the presidential election. That is troubling. And should be for any American."
It would trouble me but I haven't read or heard anything that suggests that it happened.
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Post by howard lee on May 31, 2024 12:12:36 GMT -5
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Post by Russell Letson on May 31, 2024 12:45:24 GMT -5
I have concerns about the careful orchestration of who, when, where. The aim was to get Orange in order to affect the presidential election. That is troubling. And should be for any American. I haven't been obsessive about following the process/progress of this case, but what I find troubling is the constant (from the Trumpist side) assertion that it has all been about "getting" Trump. This has, of course, been Trump's own claim right along (repeated this morning in his rambling catalogue of complaints about being victimized)--which I take to be an "everybody's out of step but me" argument. The guy (or his organization) has lost repeatedly in a range of cases--here's one summary from a February CBS News summary: Trump and his company have been winless in a series of costly, cascading high-profile legal battles in New York in the last 14 months. It has been a reckoning without precedent, with judges and juries alike concluding that Trump and his company have engaged in illegal behavior for years.
Trump's losses have come in state and federal court, civil and criminal, in rulings by juries and judges. A total of 30 jurors in three cases have unanimously ruled against Trump or his company. One of those juries was composed of citizens from heavily Democratic Manhattan, but two came in federal court in the Southern District of New York, with a pool of jurors from more politically diverse suburbs and exurbs. www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-fraud-ruling-new-york-legal-losses/His companies have a long history of legal problems (tax fraud, Trump University), and he personally has faced (and lost) civil actions based on his personal conduct. His response reminds me of the refrain in the Coasters' "Charlie Brown": "Why's everybody always pickin' on me?" (And his repeated assertion that now they're coming after you is classic protofascist fearmongering bullshit.) |
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Post by Marshall on May 31, 2024 12:57:59 GMT -5
I was thinking about this case this morning. I haven't followed it closely enough to be fluent in the legal facts. I'm fully capable of believing he paid her off and tried to be sneaky about how that was done. I wondered if that mattered much, though, as I think my personal layman filter/sticking point would be whether this case was brought because it's Trump or whether something horrible enough happened to warrant the hoopla. I might be inclined to bristle and acquit even if the legal facts said I shouldn't even though I think he's an asshole. There’s a lot that bothers me here. Yes, he’s guilty of accounting monkey business. But that’s slap on the wrist type of crime. A noticeable fine and independent auditing of books for 5 years or so. The election interference is what’s bothersome. It was a federal election. What business does NY have in judging a federal election? I suppose “States Rights” , as Republicans would say. How different is Stormy Daniels than JFK & MM ? I don’t know. But I do know this has gone too far and quite likely will backfire. |
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Post by theevan on May 31, 2024 14:13:26 GMT -5
I was thinking about this case this morning. I haven't followed it closely enough to be fluent in the legal facts. I'm fully capable of believing he paid her off and tried to be sneaky about how that was done. I wondered if that mattered much, though, as I think my personal layman filter/sticking point would be whether this case was brought because it's Trump or whether something horrible enough happened to warrant the hoopla. I might be inclined to bristle and acquit even if the legal facts said I shouldn't even though I think he's an asshole. There’s a lot that bothers me here. Yes, he’s guilty of accounting monkey business. But that’s slap on the wrist type of crime. A noticeable fine and independent auditing of books for 5 years or so. The election interference is what’s bothersome. It was a federal election. What business does NY have in judging a federal election? I suppose “States Rights” , as Republicans would say. How different is Stormy Daniels than JFK & MM ? I don’t know. But I do know this has gone too far and quite likely will backfire. Backfire? Maybe. Maybe not. Might cost a swing state or two. |
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Post by theevan on May 31, 2024 14:19:22 GMT -5
I have concerns about the careful orchestration of who, when, where. The aim was to get Orange in order to affect the presidential election. That is troubling. And should be for any American. I haven't been obsessive about following the process/progress of this case, but what I find troubling is the constant (from the Trumpist side) assertion that it has all been about "getting" Trump. This has, of course, been Trump's own claim right along (repeated this morning in his rambling catalogue of complaints about being victimized)--which I take to be an "everybody's out of step but me" argument. The guy (or his organization) has lost repeatedly in a range of cases--here's one summary from a February CBS News summary: Trump and his company have been winless in a series of costly, cascading high-profile legal battles in New York in the last 14 months. It has been a reckoning without precedent, with judges and juries alike concluding that Trump and his company have engaged in illegal behavior for years.
Trump's losses have come in state and federal court, civil and criminal, in rulings by juries and judges. A total of 30 jurors in three cases have unanimously ruled against Trump or his company. One of those juries was composed of citizens from heavily Democratic Manhattan, but two came in federal court in the Southern District of New York, with a pool of jurors from more politically diverse suburbs and exurbs. www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-fraud-ruling-new-york-legal-losses/His companies have a long history of legal problems (tax fraud, Trump University), and he personally has faced (and lost) civil actions based on his personal conduct. His response reminds me of the refrain in the Coasters' "Charlie Brown": "Why's everybody always pickin' on me?" (And his repeated assertion that now they're coming after you is classic protofascist fearmongering bullshit.) True. Except for conflating his childish behavior with proto-fascism. But for Cornflake, and I suppose you, not seeing that digging up arcane misdeeds of 8 years ago isn't a sophisticated gotcha has me scratching my head. Again, the who, when and where of all this is damning. |
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Post by theevan on May 31, 2024 14:23:09 GMT -5
To be more succinct, I see an authoritarian regime attempting to hold on to power.
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Post by Russell Letson on May 31, 2024 15:02:41 GMT -5
About the Federal/state election law connection to Trump's document-falsification: Forbes has a nice rundown of the laws involved in the case: www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2024/05/30/trump-convicted-here-are-the-election-and-tax-laws-he-was-charged-with-breakingAnd here's a link of the NYS statute that gives the Manhattan DA cause and jurisdiction: www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/ELN/17-152Evan: Trump's behavior is indeed childish--in fact, spoiled-childish--but the claims and emotional appeals he makes are indeed part of the rhetoric of fascist/authoritarian leaders and would-be leaders. "They're all out to get me." "They're coming for you next." "The system is rigged." "I am your retribution." I can't find a transcript of this morning's speech, but you can Google up video of it, along with various fact-check pieces. My point is not so much that Trump lies as that so many of his lies and exaggerations are designed to get people worked up--to feel fear and resentment, to distrust everyone but him. And that is one of the classic moves of the fascist. As to "arcane misdeeds of 8 years ago"--since when is prosecution for crimes (within the statute of limitation) a problem? Does Trump get a pass because it's water under the bridge? Because a prosecution and conviction will inconvenience or annoy him? (And if we're going to start putting time limits on investigations and such, maybe it's time to stop going on about Benghazi or Hillary's emails or Bill's blowjob or whatever James Comer and Jim Jordan are bloviating about these days.) |
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Post by TKennedy on May 31, 2024 17:10:03 GMT -5
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