|
|
Post by Rob Hanesworth on Sept 29, 2024 19:10:48 GMT -5
I was born March 16, 1947, and I haven't been safe since. I have never been totally out of range of all things that can potentially harm me. Yet, here I am.
Of the things that have and can harm me, I am right at the top of the list myself.
Paul is perfectly right. Trump takes a real problem and amplifies it and demonizes people seeking a better life only in the interests of convincing us that he is the only hope to save us.
He in full of grandiose promises backed with no real solutions. Like ending the Russia/Ukraine war in a day.
|
|
|
|
Post by papabill on Sept 29, 2024 20:39:03 GMT -5
I was born March 16, 1947, and I haven't been safe since. I have never been totally out of range of all things that can potentially harm me. Yet, here I am. Of the things that have and can harm me, I am right at the top of the list myself. Paul is perfectly right. Trump takes a real problem and amplifies it and demonizes people seeking a better life only in the interests of convincing us that he is the only hope to save us. He in full of grandiose promises backed with no real solutions. Like ending the Russia/Ukraine war in a day. Maybe terrorists and criminals deserve being demonized. They're not all "seeking a better life." |
|
|
|
Post by howard lee on Sept 30, 2024 6:26:31 GMT -5
I was born March 16, 1947, and I haven't been safe since. I have never been totally out of range of all things that can potentially harm me. Yet, here I am. Of the things that have and can harm me, I am right at the top of the list myself. Paul is perfectly right. Trump takes a real problem and amplifies it and demonizes people seeking a better life only in the interests of convincing us that he is the only hope to save us. He in full of grandiose promises backed with no real solutions. Like ending the Russia/Ukraine war in a day. Maybe terrorists and criminals deserve being demonized. They're not all "seeking a better life."
Yes, I agree. They should be. So why isn't this one behind bars already?
|
|
|
|
Post by Cornflake on Sept 30, 2024 7:04:30 GMT -5
I want the election to be over. I don't like the way it makes me cranky.
|
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Sept 30, 2024 7:47:31 GMT -5
Maybe terrorists and criminals deserve being demonized. They're not all "seeking a better life." Yes, I agree. They should be. So why isn't this one behind bars already?
Because pissing off leftists and the Deep State really isn't a crime. In fact, it's really good for the country as witnessed by the complete shit show that his successors have managed to get us into. |
|
|
|
Post by howard lee on Sept 30, 2024 8:08:38 GMT -5
OK, Peter.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hobson on Sept 30, 2024 8:40:22 GMT -5
It's just possible that those of us who live near the border have a different perspective than those who don't. Tired of the rhetoric on both sides. Want it fixed.
|
|
|
|
Post by howard lee on Sept 30, 2024 9:19:56 GMT -5
It's just possible that those of us who live near the border have a different perspective than those who don't. Tired of the rhetoric on both sides. Want it fixed.
Please keep in mind that the governors of a couple of those border states have been busing tens of thousands of those immigrants to New York City. We have our share of them here, and are lacking in resources to help and house them. The New York Times reports that more than 210,000 have arrived in the city since 2022, thanks to patriots like Greg Abbott and Ron DeSantis. So, we're up to our eyeballs in it, too.
Let's not forget the border bill that was recently forged in bipartisan cooperation that DJT convinced the Republican-held Senate to torpedo. That might have improved the perspective of people who live near the border. I'm just sayin'.
You can't walk down the street, not just in Manhattan, but here in Brooklyn now, too, without passing immigrants begging on the street with their little kids, in front of supermarkets and restaurants. I want to see it fixed, too, Renée. But I don't think it will be fixed with the interfering, meddling, and threats of an ex-President who sabotages policy to his advantage and for his own personal glorification.
|
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Sept 30, 2024 11:26:10 GMT -5
It's just possible that those of us who live near the border have a different perspective than those who don't. Tired of the rhetoric on both sides. Want it fixed. Please keep in mind that the governors of a couple of those border states have been busing tens of thousands of those immigrants to New York City. We have our share of them here, and are lacking in resources to help and house them. The New York Times reports that more than 210,000 have arrived in the city since 2022, thanks to patriots like Greg Abbott and Ron DeSantis. So, we're up to our eyeballs in it, too.
Let's not forget the border bill that was recently forged in bipartisan cooperation that DJT convinced the Republican-held Senate to torpedo. That might have improved the perspective of people who live near the border. I'm just sayin'. You can't walk down the street, not just in Manhattan, but here in Brooklyn now, too, without passing immigrants begging on the street with their little kids, in front of supermarkets and restaurants. I want to see it fixed, too, Renée. But I don't think it will be fixed with the interfering, meddling, and threats of an ex-President who sabotages policy to his advantage and for his own personal glorification.
Ah, yes. All Trump's fault. Just like the botched Afghanistan withdrawal. Trump's fault. And the Russia/Ukraine war. Trump's fault. And October 7. Trump's fault. As well as the destruction of a well functioning border. Trump's fault. Really has nothing to do with Democrats that think sanctuary cities are a good thing. Like New York. All while Trump's not been in office. It's still his fault. Sure. |
|
|
|
Post by Hobson on Sept 30, 2024 11:47:01 GMT -5
It's just possible that those of us who live near the border have a different perspective than those who don't. Tired of the rhetoric on both sides. Want it fixed.
Please keep in mind that the governors of a couple of those border states have been busing tens of thousands of those immigrants to New York City. We have our share of them here, and are lacking in resources to help and house them. The New York Times reports that more than 210,000 have arrived in the city since 2022, thanks to patriots like Greg Abbott and Ron DeSantis. So, we're up to our eyeballs in it, too.
Let's not forget the border bill that was recently forged in bipartisan cooperation that DJT convinced the Republican-held Senate to torpedo. That might have improved the perspective of people who live near the border. I'm just sayin'.
You can't walk down the street, not just in Manhattan, but here in Brooklyn now, too, without passing immigrants begging on the street with their little kids, in front of supermarkets and restaurants. I want to see it fixed, too, Renée. But I don't think it will be fixed with the interfering, meddling, and threats of an ex-President who sabotages policy to his advantage and for his own personal glorification.
That's kind of the point of the bussing. To share the problem in order to get the other parts of the country to realize that it is a problem. To put things in perspective, that many undocumented aliens are apprehended in one month. NYC certainly has more resources than any of the counties in southern Arizona. We're up to our eyeballs. You're just up to your knees.
|
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Sept 30, 2024 12:29:05 GMT -5
There is an attitude in some circles that if the flood of refugees is an overwhelming problem only for the border states, then it is not a problem. At least not a capital "P" problem. If I lived in Texas or AZ, I would be applauding the relocation of as many of the unsustainable flood of refugees to the sanctimonious sanctuary cities in the north as possible.
|
|
|
|
Post by howard lee on Sept 30, 2024 13:19:18 GMT -5
Please keep in mind that the governors of a couple of those border states have been busing tens of thousands of those immigrants to New York City. We have our share of them here, and are lacking in resources to help and house them. The New York Times reports that more than 210,000 have arrived in the city since 2022, thanks to patriots like Greg Abbott and Ron DeSantis. So, we're up to our eyeballs in it, too.
Let's not forget the border bill that was recently forged in bipartisan cooperation that DJT convinced the Republican-held Senate to torpedo. That might have improved the perspective of people who live near the border. I'm just sayin'.
You can't walk down the street, not just in Manhattan, but here in Brooklyn now, too, without passing immigrants begging on the street with their little kids, in front of supermarkets and restaurants. I want to see it fixed, too, Renée. But I don't think it will be fixed with the interfering, meddling, and threats of an ex-President who sabotages policy to his advantage and for his own personal glorification.
That's kind of the point of the bussing. To share the problem in order to get the other parts of the country to realize that it is a problem. To put things in perspective, that many undocumented aliens are apprehended in one month. NYC certainly has more resources than any of the counties in southern Arizona. We're up to our eyeballs. You're just up to your knees.
My point was that it's not just a border state problem, whatever reason brought these people to New York. Our local government is trying to deal with it as best it can here. I don't mind my tax dollars being used to share the burden—my own parents were immigrants to this country—but I believe those governors acted more out of spite toward "elitist" New York than out of concern for their own constituents. What did Abbott do when the power went out that winter and Texans were freezing their behinds off?
I am more concerned about the danger of DJT than I am about some Latin American illegal immigrants.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cornflake on Sept 30, 2024 14:31:49 GMT -5
"There is an attitude in some circles that if the flood of refugees is an overwhelming problem only for the border states, then it is not a problem. At least not a capital "P" problem. If I lived in Texas or AZ, I would be applauding the relocation of as many of the unsustainable flood of refugees to the sanctimonious sanctuary cities in the north as possible."
It's more of a problem here. For one thing, the illegal immigrants tend to arrive with children. The children go to school. (It's required by law.) It costs over $7,000 per year to educate an average student in Arizona. It costs more for English language learners, which most of these kids are. Northern states aren't chipping in.
Although I'm pretty hard-line on immigration, I don't like dumping the illegals in northern cities. They're human beings, not political footballs. If I were in their shoes I'd probably be doing what they're doing. I don't particularly blame them. I blame us for letting them get away with it.
|
|
|
|
Post by howard lee on Sept 30, 2024 14:40:57 GMT -5
Don, I thought for sure that Federal funding was being given to the state to supplement the cost of having all these extra kids in schools. I'll just sit quietly and observe now.
(And for the record, I don't like the idea of people streaming into this country illegally, either. My parents came here through legal channels, and if they had to, having suffered extremes in Europe during the Holocaust, why shouldn't anyone else since who wants to find a better life here?)
|
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Sept 30, 2024 14:47:56 GMT -5
Well, it isn't as if the relocated to the north refugees are leaving a field of clover. Is leaving a super crowded and fenced-in detention center in Texas for a hotel room in NYC a terrible thing?
And once these refugees are moved to a sanctuary city, they no longer have to worry about being deported. That's worth something. And in a sanctuary city, they can even get a driver's license and go to work, if they can find it. That is not the case in Texas (or, I'm guessing, AZ).
Critics call the bussing to the north a cruelty and a stunt. But, I don't see how the situation for those bussed north isn't an improvement for both their situation and their prospects. If that's being a political football, then punt me the hell out of Texas.
|
|
|
|
Post by Russell Letson on Sept 30, 2024 14:49:22 GMT -5
The issue that we somewhat oversimplify with the label "immigration" or "the border" is actually a bundle of issues, only some of which can be dealt with by any US government, local or national. And that's because the movement of people across national boundaries is a push-pull process, with the push probably being the more powerful force.
I married into a refugee family, and I am certain that without the push of the events of WW2 (specifically the Soviet takeover of Lithuania), my in-laws would have been content to remain in their ancestral home. They never stopped thinking about Lithuania and their Lithuanian heritage, despite becoming naturalized Americans and eventually thriving here. (They were already thriving in pre-Soviet Lithuania and had to start over from zero in Pittsburgh.)
I haven't looked up the figures (however they might be arrived at), but I suspect that a significant part of the groups we see here and elsewhere in the world are trauma-driven. And in addition to war, terrorism, starvation, despotism, and other acute conditions, abject poverty is a chronic condition that is distinct from the ordinary socio-economic ambition that many like to rather sneeringly refer to as "economic immigration." As though there were something wrong with the kind of ambition that brought, say, my Catholic maternal great-grandparents from Austria-Hungary. The ancestors of most of my second- and third-generation Jewish friends, on the other hand, were fleeing various flavors of official antisemitism, up to and including pogroms.
So that's the push. The pull is a combination of our virtues as a successful liberal democracy with a pretty healthy economy. That is what, in the 19th century, attracted Italians, Norwegians, Swedes, Poles, Hungarians, Slovaks, Slovenes, Lithuanians, Greeks, Syrians, and Lebanese--all before WW1. (Poulations of Germans and Dutch had been here since colonial times.)
The point is not so much that we have always been a nation of immigrants (though we have) as that the forces that drew and drove immigrants have been pretty consistent--as have been the nativist reactions to any given new group. (A nativist being a non American Inidan who has forgotten who is ancestors were.)
I once again recommend Tyler Anbinder's Five Points as a snapshot of immigration in early-19th-century NYC. We live in a world where large population movements are going to get even larger and more dire, and buying into the lie that the huddled masses heading our way are dominated by diseased criminals and terrorists looking to steal our jobs and our votes (and our Wimmen!) isn't going to make coping with it any easier.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cornflake on Sept 30, 2024 16:16:09 GMT -5
Russell, I don't see much there to disagree with in your post. But our history as a nation of immigrants doesn't estop us from now saying sorry, we're full. Overly full, in my view.
If Trump wins, as I fear he will, immigration will be the main reason. It's an issue that fueled Brexit and that has brought authoritarians closer to power in a number of countries. It's fueled more by economic and cultural insecurity than by racism and nativism (in my view). The Democrats have given the issue short shrift and we may all pay a high price for that.
|
|
|
|
Post by Russell Letson on Sept 30, 2024 16:31:10 GMT -5
How does one disentangle economic and cultural insecurity from racism and nativism? And how much of the economic insecurity is a) actual rather than perceived and/or b) actually caused by immigration? ("Cultural insecurity" strikes me as an emotional state fueled by racism, nativism, and tribalism--I mean, nobody is erasing general American culture, which is in any case irreversibly syncretic.)
People who are economically pinched are on the receiving end of a complex set of conditions and forces--just as inflation is the product of a number of forces, many of them originating outside our borders. (Where in many places it's worse than it is here.)
As for the nation being full--I'm not sure how one might measure that. I do note that there are commentators who get excited about falling birth rates, which suggests that for some folks, at least, we're not full enough, demographically speaking.
|
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Sept 30, 2024 17:58:27 GMT -5
At the risk of pissing off the usual pool of qualified observers around here, I'll remind everyone that the real issue is not immigration, but rather illegal immigration. The kind of immigrants that their home countries are glad to get rid of. Murderers, rapists, marauding gangs, fentanyl mules, etc.
It's not really about your great grandmother who was a legal immigrant from Lithuania.
|
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on Sept 30, 2024 17:58:41 GMT -5
Russell, I don't see much there to disagree with in your post. But our history as a nation of immigrants doesn't estop us from now saying sorry, we're full. Overly full, in my view. If Trump wins, as I fear he will, immigration will be the main reason. It's an issue that fueled Brexit and that has brought authoritarians closer to power in a number of countries. It's fueled more by economic and cultural insecurity than by racism and nativism (in my view). The Democrats have given the issue short shrift and we may all pay a high price for that. Sad thing is it is authoritarian regimes in many countries that cause people to flee looking for a better life. |
|
