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Post by Doug on Nov 28, 2015 10:52:27 GMT -5
I agree the protest was in the wrong place. But an argument can be made that Macys & the Apple store were paying for the killing. Cut off the tax income from the city and you stop the city's ability to hire killers.
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Post by drlj on Nov 28, 2015 11:01:28 GMT -5
It will accomplish nothing except making the Rahmfather happy that the protesters were on Michigan instead of outside his office door.
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Post by aquaduct on Nov 28, 2015 11:53:54 GMT -5
The kid shot was no saint but that is really not the issue. The cop, when you see the video, has no defense. Taser anyone? I could almost understand one shot fired, too, but 16, most of them when the kid was down? Just as big a crime is the way the whole thing was covered up. Emmanuel would not have won the run-off election, I would bet, had that video come out before the election. The cash settlement to the family was pushed through pretty fast with no one seeing the video, either. As soon as it came out, the cop was tossed under the bus by Rahm and he will toss others there if he has to do so. So now, the wise men punish those who were truly responsible--the retail merchants on Michigan! Oh, wait a minute. That doesn't make a lot of sense? Well, it will bring out the most cameras so Pfleger and Jackson will get the media coverage they deserve. Turn on a camera and those two guys will fight for the front row. Macy's which does not have much of a record of shooting teenagers, black or white, should pay the price for this! Demonstrating against the police, the mayor, the city council and the rest of the folks who covered the whole thing up for as long as they could, would probably not get as many news cameras out there and Pfleger would not be able to see his face on as many TV stations. Rahm could not put on his "hurting like the rest of you" face as easily I suppose. You gotta love Rahm Emanuel and Chicago politics. Who was that other incompetent he put into office? Doesn't seem to be going much better there.
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Post by james on Nov 28, 2015 13:51:05 GMT -5
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Post by epaul on Nov 28, 2015 17:59:02 GMT -5
Before it gets to needing a dozen or so cops just to corral one nut, from a budgetary and resource allocation perspective, it is probably better to just shoot the crazy bastard.
I wish I hadn't used the word "hapless" in that last post as I sure didn't mean to imply incompetence and it wasn't a good word choice, regardless. I wouldn't go anywhere near a pcd'd or whatever nut with a knife. If I could, I would shoot him, otherwise I would lock the car doors and hope for someone else to shoot him.
My point was those initial cops probably didn't have the resources to deal with that knife nut without resorting to bullets. Some cops might be ex-Seals, kung fu warriors or burly brawlers, but others might be 120 lb. females or one donut away from a coronary (and that is not any kind of criticism of slightly built cops or fat cops, people and cops come in all sizes).
I think it is getting obvious that most urban areas can't afford all these wrongful death lawsuits that are piling up. Wrongful death lawsuits may soon eclipse the school budget the way it's going. (if they haven't already)
Yet, there is a need, a clear and pressing need to subdue and apprehend nut cases, criminals, and dangerous bastards. Without shooting them and getting sued. Older tazers aren't the answer. Maybe some of the newer ones are safer (can be fired from 20' away instead of 6') and are more effective (can penetrate leather and loose heavy clothing). Maybe there is something else.
Maybe this is being addressed. I don't know. I do know there is currently a problem with non-lethal apprehension in this country. And the solution has to fit a wide range of cops. Our cops are cops, not Green Berets or Rangers. It will be an investment, but maybe some of the funds currently ear-marked for urban tanks could be directed to state of the art non-lethal apprehension tools (or brand new super dooper tazers that will drop a 300 lb. berzerker in heavy leather, or net launchers like they use for capturing gorillas
Just shooting the bastards works, but it is getting too expensive.
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Post by majorminor on Nov 28, 2015 20:20:03 GMT -5
I'm trying to visualize what I would do if I were a cop in that situation. I think I would have knocked him down a few times with squad car until he decided to stay down.
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Post by james on Nov 28, 2015 20:50:26 GMT -5
Anecdotal and not necessarily prescriptive video of man with machete not being run over or shot dead. Contains stupidity.
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Post by patrick on Nov 28, 2015 23:12:31 GMT -5
The protest was in the right place, at the right time. Having a protest in front of City Hall would accomplish nothing, because it doesn't cost the politicians a thing. But shut down Black Friday and you can bet there is pressure from the businesses affected.
So in Chicago, a black man who has damaged some property and threatened some people is summarily gunned down with 16 shots. Meanwhile, in Colorado Springs, a white man who shot 12 people, killing 3 including a cop, is somehow captured alive and unharmed.
That pretty much sums up why there is a Black Lives Matter movement.
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Post by Marshall on Nov 29, 2015 9:33:52 GMT -5
The right thing to do would be take the protest to the police and city hall. Nobody at the Apple Store shot anyone or covered anything up. I am all for the protest but stopping someone from buying a toaster isn't going to stop anyone from being shot. Jackson and Pfleger should have been raising their shrill little voices demanding answers a year ago. It is typical Chicago politics to put the attention where it really does not belong. I understand your point. But a protest at city hall would be a ho-hum event on the evening news; not affecting anybody's life. Just another sound-bite. - Business as usual. I think Apple and Macy's will recover. Sure it's going to hurt some people. (Sales people on commission). But so would a snow day. The whole coverup is the budding story. And who were the police that went into the Burger King and erased their security tape. Some heads will need to roll. We'll see how well Rahm dances through this fiasco.
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Post by epaul on Nov 29, 2015 12:06:51 GMT -5
In a better world, the cops would have shot the white guy and thrown a net over the black guy. But, the white guy surrendered and the cops weren't able to shoot him. And the non-surrendering black guy was followed down the street by seven or eight non-shooting Chicago cops before Crazy Rambo showed up.
Equating the two situations is just one of the many confused equivalencies and damaging transferences perpetuated by the BLM leaders.
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Post by RickW on Nov 29, 2015 12:51:48 GMT -5
You know, the bolo thought got me to thinking, that surely there has to be a simple device that would wrap around someone's ankles and take them down. No one goes anywhere quickly when that happens.
Tazers are crazy things, and can be lethal. Someone on PCP may or may not be immobilized. And they can kill. There was a case here where a Polish immigrant who did not speak English got really upset at the airport because he was confused, and starting tossing some furniture around. He wasn't even armed. He got tazered a couple of times, and died. Four cops, all got fired, because they all lied about what had happened.
Still, when someone is armed, as the kid with the knife does, he has stepped outside the bounds of "normal" societal behaviour. I'm pretty sure that if he had died from a tazer shot, the anger would have been pretty muted. Then again, if he had been tazered 16 times, it might be considered excessive.
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Post by patrick on Nov 29, 2015 13:46:56 GMT -5
In a better world, the cops would have shot the white guy and thrown a net over the black guy. But, the white guy surrendered and the cops weren't able to shoot him. And the non-surrendering black guy was followed down the street by seven or eight non-shooting Chicago cops before Crazy Rambo showed up. Equating the two situations is just one of the many confused equivalencies and damaging transferences perpetuated by the BLM leaders. Where exactly are the confused equivalencies and transferences? In Colorado Springs the cops waited for HOURS to talk down the shooter, while locking down the entire area. In Chicago they followed him down the street for a few minutes before one shot him 16 times. You pointed out EXACTLY where the differences are between treatment of blacks and whites. It's easy to dismiss this as just "Rambo cop," but that too is exactly the point BLM is making: there are too many Rambo cops in America, they tend to shoot black people far more often than white people, and without pressure from the public like BLM, they often get protected by their department and colleagues.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Nov 29, 2015 13:55:47 GMT -5
Equating the two situations is just one of the many confused equivalencies and damaging transferences perpetuated by the BLM leaders. Are they in fact equating the two, or just comparing the two? One is justified, the other is not. The two situations were very different. The first happened in Chicago. The perp was a black kid. The kid was on drugs, had supposedly verbally threatened some people, and was found walking down the middle of the street with a knife in hand. Cops swarmed on the scene. From what we can see in the video, most of the dozen or so cops acted appropriately, meaning that they were containing the kid while trying to figure out what to do about it. Then the nut job cop showed up and immediately fired upon the kid, who was walking away, posing no immediate threat to anybody, least of all the cop who shot him. After the kid fell to the ground, the cop kept firing, emptying his clip into the dying or already dead corpse. Next came a widespread coverup. No legal action was taken against the cop until a judge ordered the dash cam videos to be released to the public. The second situation was in Colorado. The perp was a middle-aged white man armed with assault weapons who injured some cops and killed one, injured some civilians and killed two. I haven't heard anything about drugs, but the man was heard yelling "No more baby parts!" There is no equivalence between the two, but they make for a good comparison, especially if you're black and you've experienced racial discrimination from the police. If the Colorado terrorist can be apprehended unharmed, why was it so difficult to do the same with the black kid? At least at the time of the video and the time of the shooting, the black kid was not trying to hurt anyone. The black kid was only trying to walk away. There was absolutely no reason or justification for using lethal force at that time. Ten seconds, ten minutes, or six hours later the kid might have surrendered on his own. The BLM movement is right to use to the two cases for comparison, because the only thing that makes the kid scarier than the Colorado terrorist is the color of his skin.
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Post by fauxmaha on Nov 29, 2015 13:57:36 GMT -5
Frustration is what you feel when you try to control someone or something that can not be easily or politely controlled.
Crazy guys in Colorado and crazy guys in Chicago both defy control.
We do not like crazy guys wandering around doing crazy guy stuff, so we seek to control them.
We do not want to control them ourselves, so we constitute police forces to do the controlling for us.
We demand of those police forces that which is metaphysically impossible: We want them to control the crazy guys in a manner that never offends. We demand of them that they not only control the crazy guys, but that they do so in an aesthetically inoffensive way.
Curious how just a few months ago, the outrage machine was in full gale over the attempted non-lethal arrest of Eric Garner.
It is impossible. What we ask of the police isn't "stop the crazy guys". What we are asking of them isn't even "stop the crazy guys in a nice way". What we are asking of them is "stop the crazy guys in such a way that we never have to think about the presence of the crazy guys in the first place".
That can never happen. We demand that the police sanitize our society, but every tool they use will inevitably become associated with our lack of sanitation, so we just as inevitably come to loathe those tools.
None of this is about the police or police tactics. It is about us.
That is the one thing we can not allow. So we cling to any thread we can find to make about someone else. Race is perfect here. Introspection? Don't have any use for that. Question our core assumptions? Don't have any time for that. Everything falls neatly into place if we only conclude that the reason crazy guys cause all this dissonance is purely and solely because someone else is racist.
Then we can go back into our social isolation, turn on a football game, and take comfort that none of this has anything to do with us.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Nov 29, 2015 14:08:24 GMT -5
Crazy guys in Colorado and crazy guys in Chicago both defy control. "No more baby parts!" The guy in Colorado is not crazy. The guy is a pro-life terrorist. The guy is a 2nd amendment terrorist. The guy is a Christian (I'm assuming) terrorist. There's no need to be gentle and try to call him nice names like "crazy." It's time for people to start demanding that we go into Christian churches, pro-life associations, shooting ranges and gun stores, and start rounding these people up. We should start a national registry and deport all those who look a little suspicious. And then, just to make sure, we should bomb the hell out of all of them. The guy in Chicago might have been crazy. We'll have to ask others about that since he's kind of dead.
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Post by fauxmaha on Nov 29, 2015 14:10:52 GMT -5
Crazy guys in Colorado and crazy guys in Chicago both defy control. "No more baby parts!" The guy in Colorado is not crazy. The guy is a pro-life terrorist. The guy is a 2nd amendment terrorist. The guy is a Christian (I'm assuming) terrorist. There's no need to be gentle and try to call him nice names like "crazy." It's time for people to start demanding that we go into Christian churches, pro-life associations, shooting ranges and gun stores, and start rounding these people up. We should start a national registry and deport all those who look a little suspicious. And then, just to make sure, we should bomb the hell out of all of them. The guy in Chicago might have been crazy. We'll have to ask others about that since he's kind of dead. This is where the illusion of control takes you.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Nov 29, 2015 14:22:34 GMT -5
Frustration is what you feel when you try to control someone or something that can not be easily or politely controlled. Crazy guys in Colorado and crazy guys in Chicago both defy control. We do not like crazy guys wandering around doing crazy guy stuff, so we seek to control them. We do not want to control them ourselves, so we constitute police forces to do the controlling for us. We demand of those police forces that which is metaphysically impossible: We want them to control the crazy guys in a manner that never offends. We demand of them that they not only control the crazy guys, but that they do so in an aesthetically inoffensive way. Curious how just a few months ago, the outrage machine was in full gale over the attempted non-lethal arrest of Eric Garner. It is impossible. What we ask of the police isn't "stop the crazy guys". What we are asking of them isn't even "stop the crazy guys in a nice way". What we are asking of them is "stop the crazy guys in such a way that we never have to think about the presence of the crazy guys in the first place". That can never happen. We demand that the police sanitize our society, but every tool they use will inevitably become associated with our lack of sanitation, so we just as inevitably come to loathe those tools. None of this is about the police or police tactics. It is about us. That is the one thing we can not allow. So we cling to any thread we can find to make about someone else. Race is perfect here. Introspection? Don't have any use for that. Question our core assumptions? Don't have any time for that. Everything falls neatly into place if we only conclude that the reason crazy guys cause all this dissonance is purely and solely because someone else is racist. Then we can go back into our social isolation, turn on a football game, and take comfort that none of this has anything to do with us. Overall, I think you have a point, but you're taking it too far. I think most cops are good people doing a good job. And it's a difficult job. But to put your head in the sand and pretend that cops are always right is ridiculous. There are bad cops as well. We caught one on video in Chicago. Being forced to kill someone in the line of duty must be tough. I don't think most cops have to work through that, but for those who do, I can sympathize. Killing someone by mistake must be particularly difficult. I make mistakes all the time and thankfully nobody dies because of it. Still, whenever there is a killing, there should be a high level of scrutiny. I would expect to find clearly justified shootings and some questionable shootings. The questionable shootings should be looked at from a variety of perspectives, including whether there are trends against certain groups. In the end, I would tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the cops, who in most cases are just people trying to do a balancing act in a difficult job. The Chicago killing was none of those things. That was murder in the line of duty, and I hope that cop spends the rest of his days in jail.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Nov 29, 2015 14:26:08 GMT -5
Speaking of the "illusion of control," a lot of the earlier posts here struggled with the issue of controlling the kid and whether tasers should have been used. (Rather than a gun, yes, absolutely.) But watching the video, knowing that at least for the time being that there was no immediate threat, yet something would have to be done sooner or later, I think I would have called animal control. One of those collar-on-a-stick thingies would have been a good solution.
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Post by brucemacneill on Nov 29, 2015 14:30:17 GMT -5
Question for one of you gun guys, what kind of handgun did the cop have that would fire 16 rounds without reloading? Is that a common capacity?
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Post by Doug on Nov 29, 2015 16:03:07 GMT -5
Held to a higher standard. All LEO shootings should face a jury trial.
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