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Post by epaul on Feb 15, 2019 23:43:22 GMT -5
And it is bullshit to claim Trump is merely doing what has been done before. Emergency has a time element to its definition. And there is a definite issue of time implicit in the authority granted to a president in making an emergency declaration. When a crisis is such that there is not the "time" to pursue a remedy or needed reaction through congressional action, the president has the constitutional authority to act quickly. An attack on the country, such as occurred on 9/11, or an attack of nature, such as Katrina, presented a need for swift action, action quicker than the wheels of congress could generate.
Time, as in a lack of time to go through congress and the need for quick action, is the outstanding precedent in all previous invocations of a presidential emergency declaration. That element of time is clearly and unarguably missing in Trump's "emergency" declaration. His damn wall has been debated in congress and in the public sphere for two years. Congress had plenty of time to consider and act, as did the public that elected the congress, and congress made its decision on how much money to spend on a wall.
Repeat, there was no emergency of time. There was over two years of time to consider Trump's wall. And congress, the congress the public elected, made its decision.
Trump took his case to the public. He took his case to congress. Trump lost in both cases. That is not an emergency. That is democracy.
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Post by epaul on Feb 15, 2019 23:44:52 GMT -5
So you'll be taking any number of $50 bets? Or just $50 in total? I will make a $50 bet with any participating member of this forum that if Trump's Emergency invocation makes it to the Supreme Court, he will lose.
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Post by Chesapeake on Feb 15, 2019 23:48:20 GMT -5
Epaul: No bets here. Those are my thoughts exactly.
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Post by epaul on Feb 15, 2019 23:49:46 GMT -5
You are a true conservative.
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Post by epaul on Feb 15, 2019 23:53:34 GMT -5
The Republican party, by all it used to hold dear, should be up in arms over such an end run around congressional authority and such a base attempt at extending presidential power.
It is embarrassing to see Republicans so abasing themselves, wetting themselves, in fear of Trump.
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Post by Russell Letson on Feb 16, 2019 1:02:53 GMT -5
It's funny to me that the only naysayers seem to be retired with no skin in the game. I'm old, no longer fully employed, drawing Social Security and paying taxes, but I have as much "skin in the game"* as any other citizen with an operational nervous system. Or children and grandchildren. (Neices and nephews in my case.) Or an ordinary human interest in the fate of his neighbors. "No skin in the game" is a sneer and a slur in bumper-sticker packaging.
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Post by jdd2 on Feb 16, 2019 4:23:41 GMT -5
...and nothing says "national emergency" like leaving right away for a long weekend and some golf at your florida resort.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 16, 2019 8:52:12 GMT -5
It's funny to me that the only naysayers seem to be retired with no skin in the game. I'm old, no longer fully employed, drawing Social Security and paying taxes, but I have as much "skin in the game"* as any other citizen with an operational nervous system. Or children and grandchildren. (Neices and nephews in my case.) Or an ordinary human interest in the fate of his neighbors. "No skin in the game" is a sneer and a slur in bumper-sticker packaging. And...?
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Post by PaulKay on Feb 16, 2019 9:54:46 GMT -5
I believe Chesapeake's slip is showing again. He claims to be an independent thinker but he spews the Democrat line as bad as Tim and Mike do. They can't comprehend the Trump way of doing things. They say he's losing when he's not. He's getting stuff done they've been fighting against for 50 years. They're playing Chinese Checkers while he's playing Chess. They think he's crazy because he doesn't play by their rules. He's playing a different game. Clearly. Unfortunately he’s the only one playing his game.
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Post by Marshall on Feb 16, 2019 10:08:08 GMT -5
I believe Chesapeake's slip is showing again. He claims to be an independent thinker but he spews the Democrat line as bad as Tim and Mike do. They can't comprehend the Trump way of doing things. They say he's losing when he's not. He's getting stuff done they've been fighting against for 50 years. They're playing Chinese Checkers while he's playing Chess. They think he's crazy because he doesn't play by their rules. He's playing a different game. Clearly. Unfortunately he’s the only one playing his game. Interesting. Personally I don't think the wall stuff and Emergency thing are anything different than what he's always been. It's not his downfall. He's going to get his freakin wall; or enough of it to claim victory. The National Emergency only applies to 3.5 of the 8 billion. The rest he can just do. And he will. There are no surprises with this guy. I'm more interested in Pelosi's comment about Presidential Emergencies and gun legislation. Because she's reminding Congress about Mitch McConnel's comment about the Nuclear Option in removing Supremem Court nominations from the filabuster. In that Congress is continually abdicating it's authority in favor of the Executive.
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Post by Cornflake on Feb 16, 2019 10:24:02 GMT -5
"Congress is continually abdicating it's authority in favor of the Executive." Presidents will mostly be happy to usurp that authority if Congress allows it. Our system is predicated on the notion that our tax dollars should be spent only with the consent of our legislative representatives. If we let that constraint erode, presidents of both parties will be free to do things that a majority of the country opposes. You can spin your own list of horrors, depending on your political views. Congress shouldn't allow it. We shouldn't condone it.
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Post by brucemacneill on Feb 16, 2019 11:06:46 GMT -5
"Congress is continually abdicating it's authority in favor of the Executive." Presidents will mostly be happy to usurp that authority if Congress allows it. Our system is predicated on the notion that our tax dollars should be spent only with the consent of our legislative representatives. If we let that constraint erode, presidents of both parties will be free to do things that a majority of the country opposes. You can spin your own list of horrors, depending on your political views. Congress shouldn't allow it. We shouldn't condone it. Currently we're in a cold civil war between the forces of Communism and Capitalism. I fear that the war will get hotter unless the Communist/socialist/democrats continue to push for crazy stuff and fall out of favor with regular Democrats enough to lose in a landslide. Failing that, the country will divide and talk of secession will get serious with the more communistic east and west coasts seceding from the union and the sane residents moving to the remaining states. The money is already moving out of the coastal states.
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,910
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Post by Dub on Feb 16, 2019 13:17:55 GMT -5
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Post by brucemacneill on Feb 16, 2019 13:56:13 GMT -5
Well, again we get the Commie version. He's horrible because what he's doing isn't what you want done. Republicans, contrary to MSNBC, never had a large enough majority in the senate to do anything and Democrats maintained unity in their resistance so that nothing could be done. THat's not Trump's fault, it was the voters fault. So, just like Obama did, Trump has to use his phone and pen to further the objectives that got him elected. Nothing new and different here.
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Post by timfarney on Feb 16, 2019 21:07:31 GMT -5
The Republican party, by all it used to hold dear, should be up in arms over such an end run around congressional authority and such a base attempt at extending presidential power. It is embarrassing to see Republicans so abasing themselves, wetting themselves, in fear of Trump. I won’t take that bet because I hope you’re right. In fact, I hope that someday one of Trump’s daily insults to everything the GOP used to hold dear becomes the one, and that Republicans stand up to him without waiting for the judiciary to do their jobs for them. I’ve been waiting since he was a candidate. I’m still waiting.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 16, 2019 21:31:20 GMT -5
And it is bullshit to claim Trump is merely doing what has been done before. Emergency has a time element to its definition. And there is a definite issue of time implicit in the authority granted to a president in making an emergency declaration. When a crisis is such that there is not the "time" to pursue a remedy or needed reaction through congressional action, the president has the constitutional authority to act quickly. An attack on the country, such as occurred on 9/11, or an attack of nature, such as Katrina, presented a need for swift action, action quicker than the wheels of congress could generate. Time, as in a lack of time to go through congress and the need for quick action, is the outstanding precedent in all previous invocations of a presidential emergency declaration. That element of time is clearly and unarguably missing in Trump's "emergency" declaration. His damn wall has been debated in congress and in the public sphere for two years. Congress had plenty of time to consider and act, as did the public that elected the congress, and congress made its decision on how much money to spend on a wall. Repeat, there was no emergency of time. There was over two years of time to consider Trump's wall. And congress, the congress the public elected, made its decision. Trump took his case to the public. He took his case to congress. Trump lost in both cases. That is not an emergency. That is democracy. You mean like when Obama did it for the swine flu which nobody got in one of his 11 times invoking it, or Bush in his 13 times, or Clinton's 17 times? Spare me that shit.
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,910
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Post by Dub on Feb 16, 2019 21:50:45 GMT -5
Q: How can you tell if you’re a Communist?
A: Bruce doesn’t agree with you.
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Post by Russell Letson on Feb 16, 2019 22:16:11 GMT -5
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 16, 2019 22:45:41 GMT -5
Still, not quite the 850 apprehended a day between the US ports of entry on the border, is it?
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Post by epaul on Feb 16, 2019 23:02:54 GMT -5
And it is bullshit to claim Trump is merely doing what has been done before. Emergency has a time element to its definition. And there is a definite issue of time implicit in the authority granted to a president in making an emergency declaration. When a crisis is such that there is not the "time" to pursue a remedy or needed reaction through congressional action, the president has the constitutional authority to act quickly. An attack on the country, such as occurred on 9/11, or an attack of nature, such as Katrina, presented a need for swift action, action quicker than the wheels of congress could generate. Time, as in a lack of time to go through congress and the need for quick action, is the outstanding precedent in all previous invocations of a presidential emergency declaration. That element of time is clearly and unarguably missing in Trump's "emergency" declaration. His damn wall has been debated in congress and in the public sphere for two years. Congress had plenty of time to consider and act, as did the public that elected the congress, and congress made its decision on how much money to spend on a wall. Repeat, there was no emergency of time. There was over two years of time to consider Trump's wall. And congress, the congress the public elected, made its decision. Trump took his case to the public. He took his case to congress. Trump lost in both cases. That is not an emergency. That is democracy. You mean like when Obama did it for the swine flu which nobody got in one of his 11 times invoking it, or Bush in his 13 times, or Clinton's 17 times? Spare me that shit. In this case, Pete, you are full of shit and I won't spare you an ounce of it. Neither Obama or any other president ever used his emergency powers authority to directly override a congressional vote, and Trump just it did the very next day after the vote was taken. Is there any point, any point at all, where you would ever shake your head and of Trump say, this was wrong?
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