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Post by theevan on Jan 10, 2024 7:45:27 GMT -5
What does it say on the statue of a lady holding a torch in the New York harbor? It is an inscription. A poem. It is not the law of the land. I'd venture if you lived near one of the problem border areas, like Cornflake, or folks in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, you may feel differently. New Hampshire is far removed from this catastrophe.
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Post by Cornflake on Jan 10, 2024 8:35:36 GMT -5
"What does it say on the statue of a lady holding a torch in the New York harbor?"
Doc, it's an admirable aspiration from a very different time. I've opposed further immigration all my adult life because of my conviction that the country is full. I think it's overly full. We've long since passed the point where an increase in quantity of life causes a diminution in quality of life, by my lights.
We can't be the world's lifeboat. Trying to do that will just swamp the boat.
A lot of people disagree with me. My views have never been reflected in the law of the land. That doesn't change them.
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Post by Marshall on Jan 10, 2024 9:23:06 GMT -5
And furthermore, by allowing an open border, it fuels the most solid issue red state politicians have. And that's the problem you have with an open border? You don't believe the "red state politicians"? You just don't want them empowered by an "issue"? Bull Shit. I have lots of problems with a wide open border. I'm out of sync with left politicians on this point. I agree with Fareed's assertion that some level of legal immigration is very good for our country. But wide open is stupid and detrimental. I think a lot of the country would agree. The Rs are closer on this issue. But they carry the baggage of a lot of other social and political policies I don't agree with.
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Post by theevan on Jan 10, 2024 9:46:54 GMT -5
Actually, I think we need more legal immigration.
But illegal means illegal. Or should.
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Post by james on Jan 10, 2024 11:03:59 GMT -5
There is no "open border".
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Post by John B on Jan 10, 2024 13:19:10 GMT -5
There is no "open border". Well sure, says the guy who lives on an island.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Jan 10, 2024 14:15:13 GMT -5
There is no "open border". This ^^^ Anyone who has waited for over four hours in a line of cars to cross the Tijuana San Yisidro check point knows this. Mike
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Post by james on Jan 10, 2024 14:20:53 GMT -5
Yup there’s an amusing aspect. Though Britain is not far by small boat from the European mainland. Currently, tens of thousands of people cross, (somewhat perilously) the English Channel annually, seeking a new life here. A hot political topic.
Immigration situations and politics, opinions and debates are interesting to view, compare and contrast internationally.
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Post by RickW on Jan 10, 2024 14:26:17 GMT -5
Being one of those guys who likes to see multiple sides of the issue:
The US cannot take every single person who wants to wander in. I mean, I guess they could, but the quality of life of the US citizens who are already there would go into the dumpster. The US doesn’t have the resources to feed, house and educate every single person who shows up at the door. If all South America decided to move to the US … that would be a disaster.
But how exactly are you going to seal the border? That’s one hell of a long border. The border wall is a pipe dream, because the resources required to build it, including putting it deep enough to prevent tunneling, and then man it sufficiently, would be enormous. That’s one hell of a long border, a lot of it in the middle of nowhere.
Last, Evan is right. Some degree of immigration is needed, in every single wealthy country. Japan and China are already starting to fear the affects of an aging population, because folks in wealthy countries no longer have lots of children. When you start approaching the point where there are more people who aren’t working anymore than there are people to keep the economy running, that economy starts to die. And the wealthy countries, by right of having kept their shit together, should be able to pick and choose who comes in. Sure, they should be taking in the poor and broken in some amount. But they can also choose skilled people.
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Post by Marshall on Jan 10, 2024 17:07:31 GMT -5
I think drones and cameras with infrared sensors could do a lot to find people. Relatively cheap too. Some fencing is beneficial. Of course you've got to have enforcement officers and then send back the people who don't qualify by some legal requirement.
Immigration on some level is very beneficial. As Rick points out, many top tier countries are seeing declining population. That's just not financially self sustaining.
In terms of feeding the hordes, the US is best positioned of any country to feed the masses. ePaul tells us China can't feed itself. The US, for a large part, feeds much the world with our exports.
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Post by epaul on Jan 10, 2024 17:11:14 GMT -5
Someone might chose to reiterate an interesting opinion that the clear generational divide on how Israel’s war in Gaza is perceived could be dependent on how Israel was perceived when they were young, for example:
1) Israel: the heroic attempt of a displaced, suffering and abused people to find safe harbor amidst a sea of enemies bent on its destruction.
2) Israel: The shining star of a nation surrounded by abject failure and hate.
3) Israel: The powerful military enforcing a stifling lockdown on the suffering, downtrodden, and all but caged Palestinians.
If someone does reiterate such a series of perceptions, it does not mean any are personally held. Nor does it mean that the three convenient stages as presented are to be held as being personally sequential… with a final settlement landing upon the third.
Israel could be a Trinity sort of deal. All three at once. Homeland, wonder state, jailkeeper. Or thirty at once. A kaleidoscope of Israels.
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Post by epaul on Jan 10, 2024 17:12:31 GMT -5
I have settled firmly on number 2, Israel as Superstar, a great little country that provides for its people and offers the world gifts born of its amazing science and culture. For me, number 2 supersedes any issues arising from 1 & 2 that might trouble. Israel is and Israel deserves and needs to be.
But, while I have my view, I am capable of imagining the views of others, sometimes of even trying to state them. And when so, it irritates me when someone who doesn’t appear able to do so puts me in a little pre-labeled box simply because it is the only box they have.
I imagine Marshall feels the same for the same reason (you moved both of us into your pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel box because TV turned us?). Plus, on Marshall's part, I imagine it is irritating to express a sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian refugees and a dismay over the human cost of bombings only to be boxed up and labeled as an Israel accuser nee Hamas supporter.
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Post by millring on Jan 10, 2024 17:24:28 GMT -5
Actually, I think we need more legal immigration. If one lives in small town America I suspect the view of immigration might be a bit different. If you live in a big metropolitan area I think it might be easy to see immigrants as a drain on an already overburdened social safety net system. But in small town America it seems rather obvious that immigrants -- even illegal ones -- are more than carrying their weight. Maybe it is even they who are supporting us. I work daily with several immigrants and they are hella workers.
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Post by millring on Jan 10, 2024 17:26:08 GMT -5
There is no "open border". Well, it is light years from closed.
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Post by epaul on Jan 10, 2024 17:29:44 GMT -5
There is all kinds of room in North Dakota. I don't understand why we aren't getting any immigrants, we could actually use some.
Same with northern Minnesota, largely empty. And outside of those pesky, nothing but work and trouble, mountains, all of Montana, Wyoming, and Colorado. Empty.
(why the hell anyone would want to live on a damn mountain is beyond me when there is good flat land you can put a shovel to just off to the east.)
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Post by Cornflake on Jan 10, 2024 17:42:02 GMT -5
"Last, Evan is right. Some degree of immigration is needed, in every single wealthy country. Japan and China are already starting to fear the affects of an aging population, because folks in wealthy countries no longer have lots of children. When you start approaching the point where there are more people who aren’t working anymore than there are people to keep the economy running, that economy starts to die. And the wealthy countries, by right of having kept their shit together, should be able to pick and choose who comes in. Sure, they should be taking in the poor and broken in some amount. But they can also choose skilled people."
I understand this argument and there's merit to it. But (1) we could have a guest worker program that does not involve citizenship, and (2) I'd accept a somewhat poorer economy to avoid having the Grand Canyon look like Grand Central Station.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 10, 2024 18:11:27 GMT -5
There is no "open border". This ^^^ Anyone who has waited for over four hours in a line of cars to cross the Tijuana San Yisidro check point knows this. Mike I hear it's much faster to wade across the Rio Grande in Texas. Cuts it down to maybe 20 minutes. You might want to try it.
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Post by RickW on Jan 10, 2024 18:40:06 GMT -5
Actually, I think we need more legal immigration. If one lives in small town America I suspect the view of immigration might be a bit different. If you live in a big metropolitan area I think it might be easy to see immigrants as a drain on an already overburdened social safety net system. But in small town America it seems rather obvious that immigrants -- even illegal ones -- are more than carrying their weight. Maybe it is even they who are supporting us. I work daily with several immigrants and they are hella workers. It’s interesting what has happened to the Okanagan, a large, dry area in central BC, now the center of a vibrant wine industry, (like, it’s covered in grape vines. Looks like Napa,) that used to be orchards. The interesting part is that the orchards that are left are almost universally owned by Sikhs, South Asian immigrants from India. Their culture in the old country was a farming culture, and they moved here, they work as families, they work their asses off, and make a go of it. It seems that our old farming culture is disappearing.
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Post by Rob Hanesworth on Jan 10, 2024 19:01:29 GMT -5
I haven't the wisdom to solve this problem. Apparently no one does.
But when I imagine a U.S. without immigrants I see vast suburbs of houses without roofs.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Jan 10, 2024 19:48:42 GMT -5
Immigrants cause nothing but problems. How is one to chose between Thai, Indian, Mexican, or Chinese takeout?
Mike
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