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Post by lar on Oct 29, 2019 15:22:09 GMT -5
If I thought it would do any good I'd call Trump and educate him on what "patriotism" and "love your country" mean. My chances of getting him on the phone or educating him about anything are roughly equal.
I'd also like to point out that I have the greatest respect and admiration for the men and women who have served our country in the armed forces. At that same time it's important to recognize that having served or having won the purple heart or any other medal or commendation does not automatically confer hero status or believably.
The two paragraphs above illustrate what's wrong with the conversation about Lt. Col. Vindman. Having an opinion contrary to the president's or offering testimony that may be damaging to the president does not indicate a lack of patriotism nor does it mean that he doesn't love his country. I've seen nothing in what's been written about him that would lead me to either conclusion. While it may be a fact that Vindman was born in Ukraine it's not something that indicates one thing or another. The Republican's are way off base on this and I'm ashamed of former congressman Duffy.
By the same token, the fact of military service and decorations have little to do with the veracity of Vindman's testimony. What would be of value would be Vindman's service record and the reputation he's built within the military. So let's dial down the hero worship a little bit and pay some attention to how Vindman has conducted himself during his military career.
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Post by millring on Oct 29, 2019 15:33:38 GMT -5
It's either peach or mint. It can't be both.
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Post by lar on Oct 29, 2019 15:47:01 GMT -5
It's either peach or mint. It can't be both. That's what happens when you've got two sides who seem to have less interest in truth than gin.
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Oct 29, 2019 18:15:50 GMT -5
By the same token, the fact of military service and decorations have little to do with the veracity of Vindman's testimony. What would be of value would be Vindman's service record and the reputation he's built within the military. So let's dial down the hero worship a little bit and pay some attention to how Vindman has conducted himself during his military career. He has a Purple Heart and is being called a traitor. There is zero evidence that he has any political agenda, but he has been called a "Never Trumper" by the POTUS. He is, no doubt, racking up serious legal bills, having agreed to testify to the veracity of his copious notes regarding this mess. On the basis of character, who do you believe is telling the truth? Trump or Vindman? On the basis of motive, who do you believe is telling the truth? Trump or Vindman? If this was a book in Vegas, there wouldn't a sharp twelve year old in America that would bet two dollars on Trump.
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Post by Chesapeake on Oct 29, 2019 18:22:20 GMT -5
Vindman is only the latest to confirm the whistleblower's report. What does the preponderance of evidence show? Oh wait, I think I know.
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Post by brucemacneill on Oct 29, 2019 18:41:11 GMT -5
Vindman is only the latest to confirm the whistleblower's report. What does the preponderance of evidence show? Oh wait, I think I know. Nothing.
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Post by billhammond on Oct 29, 2019 19:14:39 GMT -5
By the same token, the fact of military service and decorations have little to do with the veracity of Vindman's testimony. What would be of value would be Vindman's service record and the reputation he's built within the military. So let's dial down the hero worship a little bit and pay some attention to how Vindman has conducted himself during his military career. I have not seen anything in the press approaching "hero worship," and I don't think mentioning that he is a Purple Heart recipient is untoward. Background info: www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/10/29/purple-heart-ranger-tab-fao-meet-the-army-officer-testifying-about-trumps-ukraine-call/
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Post by lar on Oct 30, 2019 8:58:23 GMT -5
By the same token, the fact of military service and decorations have little to do with the veracity of Vindman's testimony. What would be of value would be Vindman's service record and the reputation he's built within the military. So let's dial down the hero worship a little bit and pay some attention to how Vindman has conducted himself during his military career. I have not seen anything in the press approaching "hero worship," and I don't think mentioning that he is a Purple Heart recipient is untoward. Background info: www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/10/29/purple-heart-ranger-tab-fao-meet-the-army-officer-testifying-about-trumps-ukraine-call/I'm not sure how my remarks were misconstrued so I'll try to do a better job of explaining myself. Bill, you are right there is absolutely nothing wrong with mentioning that Lt. Col. Vindman is a purple heart recipient. It was the Republican's idiotic charges about Vindman's veracity as a witness that I was addressing. In that debate the charge that Vindman can't be be trusted because he was born in Ukraine has as much validity as the idea that Vindman can be trusted because he's a purple heart recipient. Both of those are facts but they are meaningless with regard to his character and trustworthiness. Yesterday I heard and saw in print more than one account that described Vindman as a hero and a patriot. If I am the only person on this forum or in this country who came away with the impression that the recitation of those attributes was meant to bolster his image in the minds of the listeners/readers then I stand corrected. As far as I am concerned Vindman was a witness, like any other witness, in the impeachment hearing. He was an important witness because he was actually on the call between Trump and Zelensky. He was in a position to verify the testimony of other witnesses who gave hearsay testimony. Unless or until there is some compelling evidence presented that calls into question Vindman's integrity or truthfulness I am inclined to believe his account. My only point was that Vindman's conduct during his military career is a far better indicator of his integrity than the fact that he won the purple heart.
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Post by coachdoc on Oct 30, 2019 9:26:15 GMT -5
Dang. I wish they would stop this. It isn't long til the election, and impeachment will create more division and strife, no matter the outcome, and Pence would be in a perfect position to take the next election.
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Oct 30, 2019 10:13:23 GMT -5
Dang. I wish they would stop this. It isn't long til the election, and impeachment will create more division and strife, no matter the outcome, and Pence would be in a perfect position to take the next election. How this will play out politically is anybody's guess. But there is ample evidence the POTUS and his henchmen asked Ukraine to announce an investigation into Trump's likely opponent is 2020. Just letting that lay there, imo, is not an option. Put this under the microscope. Have public hearings. Trust the people to watch and make up their minds.
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 30, 2019 10:26:02 GMT -5
Dang. I wish they would stop this. It isn't long til the election, and impeachment will create more division and strife, no matter the outcome, and Pence would be in a perfect position to take the next election. Yeah, not a real well thought out deal for the Democrats. Particularly with it being handled as badly as it has. If the BEST outcome the Democrats can hope for is getting impeachment through the Senate, I think we can all hope Democrats will come to their senses. On the plus side I heard this morning that at least one Democrat has broken ranks and won't be voting to continue.
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Post by Chesapeake on Oct 30, 2019 10:41:29 GMT -5
"My only point was that Vindman's conduct during his military career is a far better indicator of his integrity than the fact that he won the purple heart."
I think they're pretty much pieces of the same cloth.
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Post by AlanC on Oct 30, 2019 11:20:11 GMT -5
Dang. I wish they would stop this. It isn't long til the election, and impeachment will create more division and strife, no matter the outcome, and Pence would be in a perfect position to take the next election. How this will play out politically is anybody's guess. But there is ample evidence the POTUS and his henchmen asked Ukraine to announce an investigation into Trump's likely opponent is 2020. Just letting that lay there, imo, is not an option. Put this under the microscope. Have public hearings. Trust the people to watch and make up their minds. But there is ample evidence that henchmen of the former POTUS (with or without his knowledge is TBD) ginned up a phony investigation of his likely successor. Just letting that lay there, imo, is not an option. Put this under the microscope. Have public hearings trials. Trust the people to watch and make up their minds.
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Post by millring on Oct 30, 2019 11:27:24 GMT -5
Those who think there is something to the Biden scandal that is not only worse than what Trump is being accused of, are dismissed as believing in a "conspiracy theory". Meanwhile, those same folks who call the Biden scandal the product of conspiracy thinking believe that Trump pulled off a conspiracy against the most powerful government in the world, while that government was under the watchful eye of the guy who they think is the greatest president of our lifetime.
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Post by RickW on Oct 30, 2019 11:50:51 GMT -5
Those who think there is something to the Biden scandal that is not only worse than what Trump is being accused of, are dismissed as believing in a "conspiracy theory". Meanwhile, those same folks who call the Biden scandal the product of conspiracy thinking believe that Trump pulled off a conspiracy against the most powerful government in the world, while that government was under the watchful eye of the guy who they think is the greatest president of our lifetime. The difference being that there does not seem to be any actual evidence that Biden did anything. If something gets pulled up, put him on trial and if guilty, hang him. There seems to be actual evidence that Trump did exactly what he’s accused of. Put him on trial, and if guilty hang him.
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Post by millring on Oct 30, 2019 11:51:58 GMT -5
Those who think there is something to the Biden scandal that is not only worse than what Trump is being accused of, are dismissed as believing in a "conspiracy theory". Meanwhile, those same folks who call the Biden scandal the product of conspiracy thinking believe that Trump pulled off a conspiracy against the most powerful government in the world, while that government was under the watchful eye of the guy who they think is the greatest president of our lifetime. The difference being that there does not seem to be any actual evidence that Biden did anything. That is simply not true.
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Post by epaul on Oct 30, 2019 11:53:45 GMT -5
I believe I have a solution that is fair and equitable. One that most in this country would happily sign off on.
Biden and Trump would both be found culpable. Each would be fined $50,000 and both would immediately be barred from holding public office for as long the sun shines yellow and the Dakota hills are green in springtime.
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Oct 30, 2019 11:54:55 GMT -5
How this will play out politically is anybody's guess. But there is ample evidence the POTUS and his henchmen asked Ukraine to announce an investigation into Trump's likely opponent is 2020. Just letting that lay there, imo, is not an option. Put this under the microscope. Have public hearings. Trust the people to watch and make up their minds. But there is ample evidence that henchmen of the former POTUS (with or without his knowledge is TBD) ginned up a phony investigation of his likely successor. Just letting that lay there, imo, is not an option. Put this under the microscope. Have public hearings trials. Trust the people to watch and make up their minds. Nobody thought Trump was going to win, including Trump. But Obama and his henchmen ginned up a phony investigation, then had Comey (one of the henchmen, I assume) drop Hillary's emails back into the news cycle a week before the election, but then didn't do anything with the results of their phony investigation, thus leading to Trump's surprise victory? Where is this ample evidence of which you speak?
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Oct 30, 2019 12:00:16 GMT -5
Those who think there is something to the Biden scandal that is not only worse than what Trump is being accused of, are dismissed as believing in a "conspiracy theory". Meanwhile, those same folks who call the Biden scandal the product of conspiracy thinking believe that Trump pulled off a conspiracy against the most powerful government in the world, while that government was under the watchful eye of the guy who they think is the greatest president of our lifetime. Not a conspiracy theory, just strange reasoning. Trump has shown zero interest in corruption. His is own family had and continues to have countless business dealings that look oddly like whatever crimes or corruption the Bidens supposedly engaged in. And yet, in the case of Ukraine, he suddenly has a sincere and deep belief that something bad has happened and jumps on the first opportunity to muscle the new President into going after the Bidens? This is more important to him than, say, the dismembering of an American journalist? You don't think this smells even remotely of two day old flounder?
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 30, 2019 12:12:46 GMT -5
Those who think there is something to the Biden scandal that is not only worse than what Trump is being accused of, are dismissed as believing in a "conspiracy theory". Meanwhile, those same folks who call the Biden scandal the product of conspiracy thinking believe that Trump pulled off a conspiracy against the most powerful government in the world, while that government was under the watchful eye of the guy who they think is the greatest president of our lifetime. The difference being that there does not seem to be any actual evidence that Biden did anything. If something gets pulled up, put him on trial and if guilty, hang him. There seems to be actual evidence that Trump did exactly what he’s accused of. Put him on trial, and if guilty hang him. Nobody's actually investigated Biden seriously. There's no there there because the media and Administrative State have declared it so.
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