|
Post by majorminor on Jan 9, 2019 16:14:34 GMT -5
I'm trying to work up some angst about this government shut down and....wait....wait....oop....never mind it was just a gas bubble.
|
|
|
Post by lar on Jan 9, 2019 16:38:28 GMT -5
Since when has "the will of the people" meant exclusively you and everybody who agrees with you? Your're right, Peter. Sorry.
|
|
|
Post by lar on Jan 9, 2019 16:51:27 GMT -5
I'd like to be able to say that I don't really care if the government is shut down or not. So far, at least, my ox hasn't been gored. I do empathize with those who have been affected, though. Especially those workers who aren't getting paychecks and those who aren't working who will never get paychecks. I know what it's like to have bills to pay and nothing to pay them with. I know what it's like to live from paycheck to paycheck and to have that paycheck suddenly stop coming.
And we're doing this why? Because our elected leaders don't have the decency or the will to do their jobs and work together to figure out what reasonable border security ought to look like? Are you kidding me?
The argument isn't even over whether someone's plan has merit or not. Neither side has a plan. All they have are arguments about why the other side's non-existent plan isn't good enough. And they've stuck the government employees in the middle.
|
|
|
Post by Fingerplucked on Jan 9, 2019 18:31:51 GMT -5
A man’s memory should be longer than his dick.
|
|
|
Post by Chesapeake on Jan 9, 2019 18:33:53 GMT -5
Shutting down the government is a bad thing, in my opinion. In all honesty, though, I can't really blame Trump for this trip down Dysfunction Lane, any more than I could blame Clinton for his shutdown. Both took advantage of the oddity in the law that allows parts of the federal government to cease functioning. As Ted Kennedy was fond of saying: If it's on the plate, eat it.
Only, in this case, it's the equivalent of saying you're going to shoot the cute puppy you have in your arms if people don't do as you say. An idea that I can't imagine ever crossed the minds of the framers of the Constitution. For one thing it seems by definition antithetical to the whole idea of having a government in the first place. As for those who say they hardly notice any difference in their daily lives: Just because something that happens in somebody else's neighborhood doesn't affect you directly doesn't mean it's a good thing, and might not at some point cross the street and take a bite out of your own ass. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, and all that.
People! The long-term solution is to get rid of the aforementioned oddity in the law itself. That would be the "Continuing Resolution."
The CR is a monstrosity that was created in the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974. Which, ironically, was intended to restore to Congress some powers of the purse string that had drained off from the legislative and over to the executive branch during previous decades. In some respects the 1974 law has had the opposite effect, and this is a perfect example.
The CR was created to address the fact that Congress is notoriously bad at meeting deadlines for adopting appropriations bills. This has become increasingly true as Congress has become increasingly divided, and the word "compromise" has gotten increasingly dirty.
Authors of the Act came up with the idea of taking all appropriations bills that had not been enacted by the end of the fiscal year, and rolling them into one gargantuan measure that would simply extend current spending, possibly with an across-the-board percentage increase to account for inflation.
Voila, the Continuing Resolution.
CRs have been called "dumb" bills because all they do is keep affected parts of the government operating as before, while kicking down the road all the contentious issues that made compromise difficult if not impossible at the committee level.
Next problem: How to make sure Congress adopts the Continuing Resolution itself.
After much discussion, the framers came up with a consequence that - it was thought - would be soooooo horrible, soooooo utterly unthinkable, that it would force Congress to reach a compromise. They decreed that those parts of the government whose funding had not been signed into law would shut down. Only functions deemed indispensable, such as Defense, would be spared.
Well, the consequence turned out to be pretty horrible alright. But not impossible. In fact, after a few years, the threat of government shutdown became a permanent part of the budgetary landscape. Every CR became a potential weapon, a puppy-assassination tool. Every. Single. Year.
So, while all sides continue to rail against this latest adventure in governmental failure, maybe our lawmakers could spare a thought to overhauling the budget process once again, after the dust clears on this one. And instead of shooting the cute little puppy, let's shoot the CR.
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Jan 9, 2019 19:05:06 GMT -5
Shutting down the government is a bad thing, in my opinion. In all honesty, though, I can't really blame Trump for this trip down Dysfunction Lane, any more than I could blame Clinton for his shutdown. Both took advantage of the oddity in the law that allows parts of the federal government to cease functioning. As Ted Kennedy was fond of saying: If it's on the plate, eat it. Only, in this case, it's the equivalent of saying you're going to shoot the cute puppy you have in your arms if people don't do as you say. An idea that I can't imagine ever crossed the minds of the framers of the Constitution. For one thing it seems by definition antithetical to the whole idea of having a government in the first place. As for those who say they hardly notice any difference in their daily lives: Just because something that happens in somebody else's neighborhood doesn't affect you directly doesn't mean it's a good thing, and might not at some point cross the street and take a bite out of your own ass. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, and all that. People! The long-term solution is to get rid of the aforementioned oddity in the law itself. That would be the "Continuing Resolution." The CR is a monstrosity that was created in the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974. Which, ironically, was intended to restore to Congress some powers of the purse string that had drained off from the legislative and over to the executive branch during previous decades. In some respects the 1974 law has had the opposite effect, and this is a perfect example. The CR was created to address the fact that Congress is notoriously bad at meeting deadlines for adopting appropriations bills. This has become increasingly true as Congress has become increasingly divided, and the word "compromise" has gotten increasingly dirty. Authors of the Act came up with the idea of taking all appropriations bills that had not been enacted by the end of the fiscal year, and rolling them into one gargantuan measure that would simply extend current spending, possibly with an across-the-board percentage increase to account for inflation. Voila, the Continuing Resolution. CRs have been called "dumb" bills because all they do is keep affected parts of the government operating as before, while kicking down the road all the contentious issues that made compromise difficult if not impossible at the committee level. Next problem: How to make sure Congress adopts the Continuing Resolution itself. After much discussion, the framers came up with a consequence that - it was thought - would be soooooo horrible, soooooo utterly unthinkable, that it would force Congress to reach a compromise. They decreed that those parts of the government whose funding had not been signed into law would shut down. Only functions deemed indispensable, such as Defense, would be spared. Well, the consequence turned out to be pretty horrible alright. But not impossible. In fact, after a few years, the threat of government shutdown became a permanent part of the budgetary landscape. Every CR became a potential weapon, a puppy-assassination tool. Every. Single. Year. So, while all sides continue to rail against this latest adventure in governmental failure, maybe our lawmakers could spare a thought to overhauling the budget process once again, after the dust clears on this one. And instead of shooting the cute little puppy, let's shoot the CR. You think Schumer and Pelosi might help this time?
|
|
|
Post by Chesapeake on Jan 9, 2019 19:10:07 GMT -5
My assumption is that whichever side thinks the other will be blamed is the side that won't budge. Right now that's the Democrats, but that could change.
My hunch is Trump will declare a national emergency, and everybody will claim victory and go home and let the courts figure it out.
|
|
|
Post by patrick on Jan 9, 2019 21:35:33 GMT -5
Let's review how we got into this situation, shall we?
Both the House and the Senate passed a CR to fund the government until February. Trump indicated he would sign it. Then RW media got wind of the fact that it did not contain $5 billion funding for the wall. (It contained money for border security, but not the wall.) A RW shitstorm ensued, with Limbaugh, Doocey, Malkin and other chattering heads howling that it was a total cave and Trump was a failure and they would not support him in 2020. Ann Coulter questioned his manhood (always a sore point for "Tiny Hands" Trump). Trump unfollowed Coulter on Twitter.
Since then, Trump has been pouting that he has to have the wall no matter what. He was even proud to tell Pelosi and Shumer on TV that he would take the blame for the shutdown (more manhood posturing).
And here we are. For some reason, Repubs believe that Dems have some sort of moral obligation to protect R Presidents from their own stupidity and Dems keep disappointing them. Pelosi doesn't seem inclined to play that game.
|
|
|
Post by Phil N. Theblank on Jan 9, 2019 21:38:08 GMT -5
Mitchell McConnell says the Republican are sticking with Trump.
Why didn’t they stick with him when they held the house and senate?
Maybe they want the political fight more than they want the wall.
|
|
|
Post by patrick on Jan 9, 2019 21:45:15 GMT -5
So, what government agencies are not funded during the shutdown and do we really need them? I think not, we should just leave them shuttered.
Dept of Homeland Security: includes United States Citizenship and Immigration Services, U.S. Customs and Border Protection, Federal Emergency Management Agency, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Transportation Security Administration, United States Coast Guard(during times of peace), National Protection and Programs Directorate, United States Secret Service, Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, Federal Protective Service, Domestic Nuclear Detection Office.
We don’t need it. We don’t need any of it. We can just build a wall, a big, beautiful wall, 10,000 miles long all around the US. (Alaska and Hawaii are on their own.) We don’t need Customs and Border Protection because we won’t let anyone through our big, beautiful wall. We don’t need the Coast Guard because we aren’t going to go out on the water. People drown out there. Secret Service? Why do big shot politicians get special police protection? They should be open to mass shootings like the rest of us. Domestic Nuclear Detection Service? If I want to have fissionable material in my basement, why is some government busybody bugging me about it? And TSA? Americans should be able to bring guns on planes. Loaded guns. And knives, samurai swords, nun chucks, grenades, pipe bombs, anything. What could go wrong?
Dept of justice: includes the United States Marshals Service , the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Prisons, National Institute of Corrections, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, firearms and Explosives, and Drug Enforcement Administration.
A bunch of busybodies interfering with honest people trying to make a living by human trafficking, child pornography, drug smuggling, organized crime, extortion, kidnapping, arms trafficking, and other harmless activities. Prisons? Just make them promise they won’t be bad in the future and let them go. Big money saver! Be gone with ye!
Dept of State: A bunch of clowns with affected British accents in stovepipe hats and striped pants hobnobbing with foreigners while looking down on the rest of us! Good riddance! Oh, yeah, they issue visas and passports too, but since Trump supporters rarely travel outside the county they were born in, it doesn’t matter. And we’ll be closing the borders anyway. Gone!
Dept of Agriculture: says it is responsible for the distribution of food and nutrition to people of America and providing nourishment as well as nutrition education to those in need under the USDA Food and Nutrition Service. Activities in this program include the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), which provides healthy food to over 40 million low-income and homeless people each month. USDA also is concerned with assisting farmers and food producers with the sale of crops and food on both the domestic and world markets. It plays a role in overseas aid programs by providing surplus foods to developing countries. SHUT IT DOWN! We don’t care if 40 million Americans starve. Let them. Why, when famine hit Ireland, it only took a few hundred thousand Irish to die of starvation, their mouths stained green from the grass they ate in desperation, for the rest to get up some gumption and move to America. Look how well that turned out. And if some farmer wants to sell his crops to, say, China, he can get off his lazy ass and pack a suitcase full of soybeans and fly there himself. Stop waiting for government handouts!
Dept of Commerce: Includes NOAA, which runs National Weather Service, National Ocean Service, National Environmental Satellite, Data, and Information Service, National Marine Fisheries Service, Office of Oceanic and Atmospheric Research, Office of Marine and Aviation Operations, National Geodetic Survey, National Integrated Drought Information System. Who needs it? Want to know what the weather is? Look out a damn window! And what do we care about droughts? Droughts come, droughts go.
Bureau of Industry and Security deals with issues involving national security and high technology. A principal goal for the bureau is helping stop proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.
What BS. I haven’t seen any WMD in my neighborhood, so it doesn’t concern me. Cut it.
Dept of the Interior: DoI manages 507 million acres (2,050,000 km²) of surface land, or about one-fifth of the land in the United States. It manages 476 dams and 348 reservoirs through the Bureau of Reclamation, 410 national parks, monuments, seashore sites, etc. through the National Park Service, and 544 national wildlife refuges through the Fish and Wildlife Service. Energy projects on federally managed lands and offshore areas supply about 28% of the nation's energy production.
Who needs it? Let anyone who wants to mine or log or anything on 1/5 of the US go ahead and do it without pesky regulations. Dump that pollution in our waterways!
Dept of Transportation: Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Highway Administration, Federal Motor Carrier Administration, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Federal Transit Administration, Federal Railroad Administration, Pipelines and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration, Maritime Administration. Why do we regulate all that stuff? We should let the Invisible Hand of the Free Market handle railroad safety and shipping of liquefied natural gas and radioactive waste, etc. And we should have a faith based air traffic control system. It’ll work great. As soon as you get on your airplane, everyone begins praying to whatever deity is in their faith tradition that they don’t have a fatal equipment problem or run into another airplane. Maybe we could segregate people by faith so that their prayers for safety are concentrated. Of course, you’ll need to avoid Air India planes, because they all think they’re going to be reincarnated.
Housing and Urban Development: No one knows what they do, including Ben Carson, the Secretary. No one will miss it, even Ben, who will probably keep showing up for work even after it’s been abolished.
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Jan 9, 2019 21:46:46 GMT -5
Mitchell McConnell says the Republican are sticking with Trump. Why didn’t they stick with him when they held the house and senate? Maybe they want the political fight more than they want the wall. When did they not stick with him? They passed tax cuts and other stuff and confirmed Kavanaugh with the slimmest of margins, which was all they had. What else were you looking for? The powers of levitation?
|
|
|
Post by Cornflake on Jan 9, 2019 21:49:03 GMT -5
Government shutdowns are illegitimate regardless of which party initiates them. See Russell's cartoon. Such a shutdown amounts to saying, "I can't get what I want through an elected majority of the people's representatives so I'm going to extort what I want." No one ought to compromise with such a position. Not by the length of an eyelash.
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Jan 9, 2019 22:08:09 GMT -5
So, what government agencies are not funded during the shutdown and do we really need them? I think not, we should just leave them shuttered. Dept of Homeland Security: includes United States Citizenship and Immigration Services, U.S. Customs and Border Protection, Federal Emergency Management Agency, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Transportation Security Administration, United States Coast Guard(during times of peace), National Protection and Programs Directorate, United States Secret Service, Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, Federal Protective Service, Domestic Nuclear Detection Office. We don’t need it. We don’t need any of it. We can just build a wall, a big, beautiful wall, 10,000 miles long all around the US. (Alaska and Hawaii are on their own.) We don’t need Customs and Border Protection because we won’t let anyone through our big, beautiful wall. We don’t need the Coast Guard because we aren’t going to go out on the water. People drown out there. Secret Service? Why do big shot politicians get special police protection? They should be open to mass shootings like the rest of us. Domestic Nuclear Detection Service? If I want to have fissionable material in my basement, why is some government busybody bugging me about it? And TSA? Americans should be able to bring guns on planes. Loaded guns. And knives, samurai swords, nun chucks, grenades, pipe bombs, anything. What could go wrong?Dept of justice: includes the United States Marshals Service , the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Prisons, National Institute of Corrections, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, firearms and Explosives, and Drug Enforcement Administration. A bunch of busybodies interfering with honest people trying to make a living by human trafficking, child pornography, drug smuggling, organized crime, extortion, kidnapping, arms trafficking, and other harmless activities. Prisons? Just make them promise they won’t be bad in the future and let them go. Big money saver! Be gone with ye!Dept of State: A bunch of clowns with affected British accents in stovepipe hats and striped pants hobnobbing with foreigners while looking down on the rest of us! Good riddance! Oh, yeah, they issue visas and passports too, but since Trump supporters rarely travel outside the county they were born in, it doesn’t matter. And we’ll be closing the borders anyway. Gone!Dept of Agriculture: says it is responsible for the distribution of food and nutrition to people of America and providing nourishment as well as nutrition education to those in need under the USDA Food and Nutrition Service. Activities in this program include the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), which provides healthy food to over 40 million low-income and homeless people each month. USDA also is concerned with assisting farmers and food producers with the sale of crops and food on both the domestic and world markets. It plays a role in overseas aid programs by providing surplus foods to developing countries. SHUT IT DOWN! We don’t care if 40 million Americans starve. Let them. Why, when famine hit Ireland, it only took a few hundred thousand Irish to die of starvation, their mouths stained green from the grass they ate in desperation, for the rest to get up some gumption and move to America. Look how well that turned out. And if some farmer wants to sell his crops to, say, China, he can get off his lazy ass and pack a suitcase full of soybeans and fly there himself. Stop waiting for government handouts!Dept of Commerce: Includes NOAA, which runs National Weather Service, National Ocean Service, National Environmental Satellite, Data, and Information Service, National Marine Fisheries Service, Office of Oceanic and Atmospheric Research, Office of Marine and Aviation Operations, National Geodetic Survey, National Integrated Drought Information System. Who needs it? Want to know what the weather is? Look out a damn window! And what do we care about droughts? Droughts come, droughts go. Bureau of Industry and Security deals with issues involving national security and high technology. A principal goal for the bureau is helping stop proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. What BS. I haven’t seen any WMD in my neighborhood, so it doesn’t concern me. Cut it.Dept of the Interior: DoI manages 507 million acres (2,050,000 km²) of surface land, or about one-fifth of the land in the United States. It manages 476 dams and 348 reservoirs through the Bureau of Reclamation, 410 national parks, monuments, seashore sites, etc. through the National Park Service, and 544 national wildlife refuges through the Fish and Wildlife Service. Energy projects on federally managed lands and offshore areas supply about 28% of the nation's energy production. Who needs it? Let anyone who wants to mine or log or anything on 1/5 of the US go ahead and do it without pesky regulations. Dump that pollution in our waterways!Dept of Transportation: Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Highway Administration, Federal Motor Carrier Administration, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Federal Transit Administration, Federal Railroad Administration, Pipelines and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration, Maritime Administration. Why do we regulate all that stuff? We should let the Invisible Hand of the Free Market handle railroad safety and shipping of liquefied natural gas and radioactive waste, etc. And we should have a faith based air traffic control system. It’ll work great. As soon as you get on your airplane, everyone begins praying to whatever deity is in their faith tradition that they don’t have a fatal equipment problem or run into another airplane. Maybe we could segregate people by faith so that their prayers for safety are concentrated. Of course, you’ll need to avoid Air India planes, because they all think they’re going to be reincarnated.Housing and Urban Development: No one knows what they do, including Ben Carson, the Secretary. No one will miss it, even Ben, who will probably keep showing up for work even after it’s been abolished. Spoken like a true born and bred bureaucrat.
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Jan 9, 2019 22:20:02 GMT -5
Government shutdowns are illegitimate regardless of which party initiates them. See Russell's cartoon. Such a shutdown amounts to saying, "I can't get what I want through an elected majority of the people's representatives so I'm going to extort what I want." No one ought to compromise with such a position. Not by the length of an eyelash. That's the real rub. Congress has found ways to legimately duck responsibility for everything. Don't want to commit to hard financial choices? There's a Continuing Resolution for that. Don't want your name associated with a difficult piece of legislation? There's always an Executive Order that let's you pretend to be bold. Actual decisiveness is getting rarer and rarer. That's why I think the shutdown is great. Go ahead kids. Rent a set of balls and overide a Trump veto. You do remember how to do that don't you?
|
|
|
Post by Phil N. Theblank on Jan 9, 2019 22:35:52 GMT -5
Mitchell McConnell says the Republican are sticking with Trump. Why didn’t they stick with him when they held the house and senate? Maybe they want the political fight more than they want the wall. When did they not stick with him? They passed tax cuts and other stuff and confirmed Kavanaugh with the slimmest of margins, which was all they had. What else were you looking for? The powers of levitation? I'm just asking why did Trump wait until the Democrats controlled the house? Why didn't the republicans give him the wall when they didn't need any democratic votes?
|
|
|
Post by aquaduct on Jan 9, 2019 22:49:09 GMT -5
When did they not stick with him? They passed tax cuts and other stuff and confirmed Kavanaugh with the slimmest of margins, which was all they had. What else were you looking for? The powers of levitation? I'm just asking why did Trump wait until the Democrats controlled the house? Why didn't the republicans give him the wall when they didn't need any democratic votes? Because now Democrats have nowhere to hide (and I think the tax cuts required a special budgetary manuever that prevented inclusion of the wall).
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Jan 9, 2019 23:02:40 GMT -5
That is a bit of a tap dance, Pete. You posed the very same question several times in regard to other issues when "Barry" had his party in control of both chambers.
Why didn't Trump try get the wall when the Republicans were in charge of both the House and Senate?
Not expecting you to know the answer, only Trump does. But, it is a fair question.
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Jan 9, 2019 23:12:03 GMT -5
And one possible answer is the wall has never been about the wall itself, (which no one has ever expected, or wanted, to ever get built) but is rather an nice gas-soaked log for Trump's bonfire.
|
|
|
Post by epaul on Jan 9, 2019 23:17:06 GMT -5
(and that will be $5, Phil. Check your PM.)
|
|
|
Post by patrick on Jan 9, 2019 23:26:01 GMT -5
That is a bit of a tap dance, Pete. You posed the very same question several times in regard to other issues when "Barry" had his party in control of both chambers. Why didn't Trump try get the wall when the Republicans were charge of both the House and Senate? Not expecting you to know the answer, only Trump does. But, it is a fair question. The reason Trump didn't get the wall when the Rs controlled both houses is because his own majority doesn't believe in the wall. Its just a vanity project. More specific question: why don't the Rs propose that the wall get funded in return for protection for DACA dreamers? Great deal, right? Master negotiator Trump should have proposed it already. But its already been proposed. That was the deal last year, when the budget included lots more money for the wall, but the extremist Rs began screaming "amnesty" and that killed it, leading to last year's shutdown. Here's the deep negotiation going on: No one, across the political spectrum, believes the wall is worth a pile of warm sh!t. The RW wants to stop illegal immigration, reduce legal immigration, and reduce the number of legal immigrants already in the country. The wall is totally worthless in that endeavor. So the negotiation comes down to: the Rs are going to offer something of value (protection for dreamers) and get something worthless (the wall). And the RW will kill anything that actually offers some form of immigration. Otherwise, the Rs have nothing. Nothing to go into a negotiation with. They can only hold the government hostage and hope that the public somehow turns against the Ds, and that's not working, because Trump is such an idiot he already said he caused the shutdown.
|
|