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Post by coachdoc on Oct 13, 2023 13:25:48 GMT -5
I say use a microphone or blend a mic and a soundboard pickup.
Two goals to be achieved. Be heard. Good tone. Mic for tone. Plug in to be heard. Choose one or the other.
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Post by coachdoc on Oct 13, 2023 13:27:48 GMT -5
I’m considering using an electric guitar, plug it in and pretend it’s acoustic. At least you’ll be heard.
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,852 
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Post by Dub on Oct 13, 2023 13:55:09 GMT -5
I’m considering using an electric guitar, plug it in and pretend it’s acoustic. At least you’ll be heard. Every time I saw Thom Bresh he was using one of these. reverb.com/item/64553316-aphex-acoustic-xciter-2000s-greenIn workshops, he would always recommend them. My (née Marshall’s) ToneDexter is perfect for what you want. It sounds exactly like my guitar would through a mic and has a boost pedal for playing leads louder than backup. I use it everywhere there’s a sound system. My D-28 has a K&K Pure Western Mini. The ToneDexter requires external 9V power. The Aphex Acoustic Exciter can use an internal 9V battery or 48V phantom power from a mixer. On edit: Bresh also had the original Go Acoustic Audio pickup system in his Leach dreadnought with the Bigsby neck. I don’t remember seeing him use that guitar on stage. |
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Post by goacoustic on Dec 3, 2023 12:12:59 GMT -5
Neva hoid of vit. Looks interesting. A UST with 2 cables comping out of it. That's a little confusing. Nice looking preamp circuit board. I suspect they are saying the preamp will tame the UST sound and provide the ability to EQ or shape the sound. Kinda pricy. The proof is in the pudding. I'd have to hear it live through a sound system to comment further. Maybe it's great. Maybe it's hype. |
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Post by goacoustic on Dec 3, 2023 12:21:31 GMT -5
The pickup design reminds me of early Baggs saddle transducers, which had individual crystals molded into the saddle. I also see that they offer a MIDI add-on board. I wonder whether it's Roland-specific or can feed any MIDI processing system. Steve Cloutier built a MIDI guitar years ago with a hex pickup that he could use with all manner of gear. You can hear it on some of his YouTube videos. Hi, I am guitar maker Paul McGill, along with my partner Ben Shaw we are Go Acoustic audio It is true that we have midi output available with our system but it is not the primary product we provide. It is also true that midi requires individual saddle pickups to offer the ultimate tracking. For this purpose we provide Graphtech individual pickup saddles. Here is a short recording of our system which is used by one of the most respected midi guitarist in the country, Steve Oliver. drive.google.com/file/d/1j7EaxovPPboRwV_KXYZ8VY6RiV-dTrwX/view?usp=drivesdkPlease note the 1/4 inch signal is direct with no mike added. |
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Post by goacoustic on Dec 3, 2023 12:33:13 GMT -5
Neva hoid of vit. Looks interesting. A UST with 2 cables comping out of it. That's a little confusing. Nice looking preamp circuit board. I suspect they are saying the preamp will tame the UST sound and provide the ability to EQ or shape the sound. Kinda pricy. The proof is in the pudding. I'd have to hear it live through a sound system to comment further. Maybe it's great. Maybe it's hype. Thom is, unfortunately, no longer with us. He was not easily satisfied so his preference to our system was much appreciated. Thom found that after years of pushing low strings with a thumb pick he could forget about how much he could move the room through the Go Acoustic sound system I installed systems for him in 2 guitars. His leach Spirit and his Langeans duelette. Here is Thom with the always high vol Johnny Highland competing in the mix against an electric guitar. No feedback He always played live through a Fishman loudnbox mini, lined out to the board. youtu.be/F1ZNlwI2zF8?si=0a0nirttOydmPUU9The double neck was setup for midi with Graphtech pickups Hos Spirit had a Go Acoustic single saddle Pickup |
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Post by goacoustic on Dec 3, 2023 12:53:51 GMT -5
Yup! Reminds me of the old Baggs LB pickup. Those used 6 piezos and had to be the right model for the string spacing. They were limited in how much you could alter the saddle for radius and height so the saddle slot had to be carefully routed to keep the pickup alterations within the limits and still achieve the proper action. One of the big install limits was cutting the saddle down too much because past a certain point string balance would be altered beyond adjusting. I learned right away to cut the saddle slot just a bit deeper than measurements told me to. It was better to cut less off the pickup and shim it up a bit to get the action right. This also allowed for humidity changes. While a bit tricky to install the LB pickup was rather good if done correctly. I still have one in the package but don't remember the spacing. At that time there was also the Highlander pickup. While precise measurements were needed to do a proper install it worked just as well as the Baggs LB. I did a Highlander install last week for a client that found a used one. I've done so many of them that they are almost second nature for me. This one turned out perfect. And while they were still in business Highlander quoted me on their website "This system is built like a brick outhouse, very roadworthy" and they were. Martin, it is understandable that people would think of our single saddle pickup as being comparable to the LRB 6. The LRB 6 is a summed signal with all 6 crystals sending one signal to the preamp. I designed the Go Acoustic pickup to have 6 signals, so in effect there is zero summing of strings leaving the bridge. Think of it as a zero-sum concept. We are just now introducing our new pre radius saddle pickup. They are made with the crystals placed in an even arch under the strings, 3/32 above the crystals. This allows us greater height adjustment and better, more powerful signal to manage. As for string balancing, the Go Acoustic preamp has an active input circuit for each string with independent vol. Pots to adjust any imbalance that may be present in the string balance. It does not matter how you shape our string rest, it is designed to be shaped. The bottom of the pickup can be ground off .080 inches. We use 2 micro flex cables, they detached so the bottom can be easily worked. |
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Post by goacoustic on Dec 3, 2023 13:06:28 GMT -5
Neva hoid of vit. Looks interesting. A UST with 2 cables comping out of it. That's a little confusing. Nice looking preamp circuit board. I suspect they are saying the preamp will tame the UST sound and provide the ability to EQ or shape the sound. Kinda pricy. The proof is in the pudding. I'd have to hear it live through a sound system to comment further. Maybe it's great. Maybe it's hype. Marshall One of our obstacles is the long tradition of the next greatest pickup, we do not over emphasize the pickup in our system. Many are weary of trying different systems only to discover they generally have the same issues. Various pickups have been used with go Acoustic with generally the same results. But there must be independent signals from the bridge to our preamp. An under saddle transducer is incompatible with our system. Our saddle is a pickup design for bi lateral absorption of string energy. The crystals are not compressed to eliminate the thwack associated with most bridge saddle pickups. The two cable carry 3 signals each, 1-3 4-6 strings. |
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Post by goacoustic on Dec 3, 2023 13:31:28 GMT -5
I thought this was interesting. First is the Go Acoustic system and second is the native Taylor system. I would like to ask viewers to ignore Aaron's video for the following reasons. Aaron was here in Nashville back in 2019 for CAAS. He saw Bresh perform on Go Acoustic and asked us to provide a modified system, of which his is the only one. At that time we used Graphtech pickups for all our installations, we were transitioning to our later more improved circuits back then but we could not install them in Aaron's guitar and provide the mod he requested. His is the only system I have ever installed with a top mounted transducer. It is an early attempt at providing tap sensitivity to our preamp that does not respond to top tapping, our later designs all use a mike mounted to the preamp which picks up the top tapping. The Earlier preamps had more harshness in The treble. We do not consider out signal to have thwack. The pickup does not compress the crystals which is the main source of the unpleasant tone. We installed systems for Metheny this fall which he toured with on his recent solo tour. He commented that he did not realize how much he was holding back from over playing the old under Saddle pickup he had used for over 20 years. He had us install another system the day he played the Ryman during his tour. A Taylor guitar. People are entitled to their perceptions, but Aaron's perceptions and other factors in recording his video is in variance with what Goaa offers. I would prefer this review be off the internet as it comes up on searches and is not in y opinion a reflection of what we have achieved.
I showed it to Bresh and he thoroughly rejected the assessment. The Duelette guitar we did for him was in 18 before we upgraded the preamp as well. He never felt like he had to hold back pushing his guitar as loud as he chose too driving bass with his thumb pick in his dropped Eb tuning. He also loved the over all tone and when I question him about it he said that the highs were more present and sounded more pure. Before Goaa he used Barbera.
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Post by goacoustic on Dec 3, 2023 13:35:09 GMT -5
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Post by goacoustic on Dec 3, 2023 13:39:12 GMT -5
Yup! Reminds me of the old Baggs LB pickup. Those used 6 piezos and had to be the right model for the string spacing. They were limited in how much you could alter the saddle for radius and height so the saddle slot had to be carefully routed to keep the pickup alterations within the limits and still achieve the proper action. One of the big install limits was cutting the saddle down too much because past a certain point string balance would be altered beyond adjusting. I learned right away to cut the saddle slot just a bit deeper than measurements told me to. It was better to cut less off the pickup and shim it up a bit to get the action right. This also allowed for humidity changes. While a bit tricky to install the LB pickup was rather good if done correctly. I still have one in the package but don't remember the spacing. At that time there was also the Highlander pickup. While precise measurements were needed to do a proper install it worked just as well as the Baggs LB. I did a Highlander install last week for a client that found a used one. I've done so many of them that they are almost second nature for me. This one turned out perfect. And while they were still in business Highlander quoted me on their website "This system is built like a brick outhouse, very roadworthy" and they were. Only Aaron's guitar is the original preamp we call Gen 0. The later preamps we call Gen 1. The name GO came from Gen One. The Gen 0 and Gen 1 circuits are not compatible. The auxiliary control units do not cross over.
The first preamps made in 2015 and 16 were much more limited. In late 2016 my partner Ben came up with an input board to add vol control to balance Graphtech pickups, which we struggled with to achieve string balance. We ran a summed odd and even signal through the dual input Preamp of that time, the result was stunning to me.
In July of 2017 my friend John Standefer came to CAAS, he plays one of my Super Acoustics and had been involved with earlier efforts to get a great amplified sound. Ben had just completed the first version of what we call the UP board preamp, UP means universal preamp, I installed it in John's guitar. That weekend John performed on the UP at CAAS and the sound engineer, my former employee Jim Sullivan, called me as John was playing. He could not believe what he just experienced. He left the board flat with no adjustment.
There were a series of mods to that original UP, but it was basically the foundation of what we still offer. There were changes to the power supply, Capacitors, gain structure, input impedance, its a long list. But when the concept works its clear it is valid and I was thrilled to hear what Ben created, to me it was a complete shift in live acoustic guitar amplification. It was in March 19 that I convinced Jack Pearson to let me install Goaa in his main acoustic stage guitar. He declared you can not play slide on ampified acoustics then after 20 seconds told me he could on Goaa.
It was in early 2020 that Ben designed the first preamp with a mike mounted on it. I installed the first one in a Gibson j45 that Mike Volts, long time Gibson production manager, brought me. He had me meet with the engineering staff at Gibson that winter and we hoped Gibson would be inclined to use Goaa.
By 2020 it was clear that individual saddles are an impediment for many guitarist. That summer I designed and started making the first prototypes of our single saddle pickup. After it became clear the design was valid the assembly was stream lined for production through computer generated files and Ben added printed circuits with micro connectors and internal contacts.
We are only now feeling confident with moving forward with scaling up to greater production.
So this is the accurate history of development. Given there have been posts made concerning various version, I add this history.
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Post by John B on Dec 3, 2023 15:08:33 GMT -5
I thought this was interesting. First is the Go Acoustic system and second is the native Taylor system. I would like to ask viewers to ignore Aaron's video for the following reasons. Aaron was here in Nashville back in 2019 for CAAS. He saw Bresh perform on Go Acoustic and asked us to provide a modified system, which there is not another in circulation like it. Up until that time we used Graphtech pickups on all our installations, we were transitioning to our later more improved circuits back then but we could not install them in Aaron's guitar and provide the mods he requested. This is the only system I have ever installed with a top mounted transducer. It is an early attempt at providing tap sensitivity to the normally quiet top that foes not respond to top tapping. Our later designs all use a mike mounted to the preamp which picks up the top tapping. The Earlier preamps had more harshness in The treble. We do not consider out signal to have thwack and the pickup does not compress the crystals which is the main source of the unpleasant tone We installed systems for Metheny this fall which he toured with on his recent solo tour. He commented that he dod not realize how much he was holding back from over playing the oLd under Saddle pickup. He had us install another system the day he played the Ryman during his tour. A Taylor guitar. People are entitled to their perceptions but here we do not have an opinion of what we offer and there is no comparing it to what you get from Go Acoustic today. I would prefer this review be off the internet but I have no control over that. I showed it to Bresh and he thoroughly rejected the assessment. The Duelette guitar we did for him was in 18 before we upgraded the system as well. He never felt like he had to hold back pushing his guitar as loud as he chose too. He also loved the over all tone. Hey Paul, so nice of you to drop by our little corner of the internet and answer some of our speculations. Giacomo Fiore, back when he was at Belmont and then for a while when he was in the Bay Area, used to contribute here from time to time. I've never had a chance to play one of your guitars, but Giacomo spoke very highly of them. I would love to try one of your Del Vecchio-inspired guitars! |
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Post by goacoustic on Dec 3, 2023 15:31:11 GMT -5
In Aaron Short's review video above he shows that with heavy strumming the thing quacks out like a normal UST piezo. That would not work for me. No, it wouldn’t. But of course the pickup he’s demonstrating is no longer made. This is an example of the tone of Go Acoustic played aggressively. drive.google.com/file/d/1lmDVhT-YkZr1u5TJjTXV9zYoxapuu4Te/view?usp=drivesdkAs I have mentioned, the peizos are not compressed in the saddle, they are mobile in function inside the saddles. This [provides greater output and quality tone. Our system offers over -90% total distortion. |
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Post by goacoustic on Dec 3, 2023 15:42:12 GMT -5
No, it wouldn’t. But of course the pickup he’s demonstrating is no longer made. This is an example of the tone of Go Acoustic played aggressively. drive.google.com/file/d/1lmDVhT-YkZr1u5TJjTXV9zYoxapuu4Te/view?usp=drivesdkAs I have mentioned, the peizos are not compressed in the saddle, they are mobile in function inside the saddles. This [provides greater output and quality tone. Our system offers over -90% total distortion. I made Giacomo a Classical when he went to the SF conservatory. |
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Post by goacoustic on Dec 4, 2023 5:42:51 GMT -5
I would like to ask viewers to ignore Aaron's video for the following reasons. Aaron was here in Nashville back in 2019 for CAAS. He saw Bresh perform on Go Acoustic and asked us to provide a modified system, which there is not another in circulation like it. Up until that time we used Graphtech pickups on all our installations, we were transitioning to our later more improved circuits back then but we could not install them in Aaron's guitar and provide the mods he requested. This is the only system I have ever installed with a top mounted transducer. It is an early attempt at providing tap sensitivity to the normally quiet top that foes not respond to top tapping. Our later designs all use a mike mounted to the preamp which picks up the top tapping. The Earlier preamps had more harshness in The treble. We do not consider out signal to have thwack and the pickup does not compress the crystals which is the main source of the unpleasant tone We installed systems for Metheny this fall which he toured with on his recent solo tour. He commented that he dod not realize how much he was holding back from over playing the oLd under Saddle pickup. He had us install another system the day he played the Ryman during his tour. A Taylor guitar. People are entitled to their perceptions but here we do not have an opinion of what we offer and there is no comparing it to what you get from Go Acoustic today. I would prefer this review be off the internet but I have no control over that. I showed it to Bresh and he thoroughly rejected the assessment. The Duelette guitar we did for him was in 18 before we upgraded the system as well. He never felt like he had to hold back pushing his guitar as loud as he chose too. He also loved the over all tone. Hey Paul, so nice of you to drop by our little corner of the internet and answer some of our speculations. Giacomo Fiore, back when he was at Belmont and then for a while when he was in the Bay Area, used to contribute here from time to time. I've never had a chance to play one of your guitars, but Giacomo spoke very highly of them. I would love to try one of your Del Vecchio-inspired guitars!
John,
The cone thickness in the resonators is only .008 inches. Their strength is derived by alloys and the spinning process. They are highly amplifonic.
I made 3 resonator guitars for Chet Atkins. A Koa version in 93, a Brazilian Sapwood version in 94 and the Maple guitar in 95 featured in his final Book by the Cochrans- Me and my guitars"
Chet was never able to use the Del Vecchios much outside of his Studio. No way to control the thin cone on stage with a band. Some years ago I had occasion to install Go Acoustic in one of my resonator guitars. I used 6 Graphtech pickups and it had the older first version preamp. I could not believe that it caputured the sound and controlled cycling.
A few years later another client asked me to amplify one of my resonators. The client is Joe Taylor, Joe is a tremendous guitarist who worked in NYC for years before returning to South Carolina where he set shop in his studio, recording and producing as well as touring with his own act.
Joe produces a country Artist named Andrew Beam. A few years ago at a Festival in Columbia SC they had occasion to do one song and without sound check jumped on stage to play. Joe sent me this video which is such a testament to the ability of Goaa to capture the specific sound of a guitar and control feedback. I wish I had had been able to offer this 30 years ago. I think Chet would have been thrilled, he could have taken his DV on stage with the band.
I think this pretty much is Chet's recorded sound on DV guitars, which were all over his recordings.
Go Acoustic does not sound the same in every guitar. A Martin sounds very different than the Taylor V brace model in the video shown on this thread. The Gibson was a studio guitar with old strings meant to demonstrate a funky more muted tone. The system captures that.
Another example is this recording by Steve Oliver from his collaboration with Brian Simpson, Unify. This project was the #1 jazz album on Billboard for 18 months. Goaa was recorded in a Cordoba classical, It was a direct recording, as is the case with the two videos we recently released of Roger and Tim with no mikes at all, just reverb.
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Post by theevan on Dec 4, 2023 7:43:07 GMT -5
Paul McGill is an interesting fellow. Visited him with J (Giacomo Fiore) back in the day when Paul was building J a classical. His place was a terrible mess. But his guitars are emphatically not. Unbelievable craftsmanship.
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Post by theevan on Dec 4, 2023 7:49:41 GMT -5
Just went back and read the thread above and am amazed to see Paul in here. A real honor!
I have wanted one of his classicals ever since that visit. Alas, I am done buying guitars. (Said no player ever)
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Post by PaulKay on Dec 4, 2023 8:21:28 GMT -5
My opinion is that no piezo transducer can give you the “real” acoustic sound of any guitar.
The technology just isn’t there. The only thing anyone found that can is a microphone with all its issues.
This system is WAY too complicated and it offers no acoustic improvement over basic piezo sound.
I still think the soundhole mag pickup with a vibration sensor is as good as we have today.
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Post by Marshall on Dec 4, 2023 8:52:04 GMT -5
Thanks Paul McGill for your spirited and thorough defense/analysis of the new pickup. It sure seems interesting. I understand touring Pros have a need for a bulletproof system that gives them the best most versatile sound. In most those cases they have a professional soundman at the controls who can work to tame the vagaries of most pickups out there. It's different for us weekend warrior guitar players, who have to deal with the issues mostly without much qualified assistance. In that regard your pickup system shows good promise, especially because it doesn't require permanent modification to the guitar.
One question I have is; how do you/we deal with getting the right height for your saddle? Can it be sanded down?
I'll certainly be interested in hearing more information and recordings about this pickup. But there are many options out there including Impulse Response pedals and such that are all clamoring for attention and market share. It's a brave new world of amplification.
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Post by Marshall on Dec 4, 2023 9:00:58 GMT -5
PS - There's a lot more discussion about everything pickup/amplification on the Acoustic Guitar Forum/Acoustic Amplification forum. www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16I see no mention of the GoAcoustic at this point. And I'm not going to start a thread, but I think Paul McGill ought to check in over there. Maybe even contact Aaron Short about getting a review of the latest pickup iteration. |
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